Euro two-fer!!!

[Drake Tungsten]

It's been kind of boring around here. Time for a little US-EU strife, I think. First article...

For Europeans, scolding the Bush administration for everything from Guantanamo to the Iraq War to secret CIA prisons has become a full-time job. But when it comes to the American scandal over President Bush's warrantless wiretaps, there's been a curious reaction from the other side of the Atlantic: silence. Where is the European outrage?

European restraint may arise from a fear of hypocrisy. The fact is that in much of Europe wiretapping is de rigueur—practiced more regularly and with less oversight than in the United States. Most Europeans either don't know about this or, more likely, simply don't care.

http://www.slate.com/id/2136147/

I've been saying for a long time now that it's hard to get up in arms about the Patriot Act and other US national security measures used in the War On Terror when obviously free European countries have been doing the same or worse for decades now.

Number two!

Cartoons and riots made the headlines in Europe last week, but a far less fiery event, the publication of an academic study, might shed greater light on the future of the Continent. The Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, headquartered in Paris, released a report, Going for Growth, that details economic prospects in the industrial world. It is 160 pages long and written in bland, cautious, scholarly prose. But the conclusion is clear—Europe is in deep trouble. These days we all talk about the rise of Asia and the challenge to America, but it might well turn out that the most consequential trend of the next decade will be the economic decline of Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11298986/site/newsweek/

I know this one will probably piss some people off, but Zakaria isn't saying anything that a perceptive observer hadn't noticed already. Europe, despite pretensions to becoming a counterweight to the power of the US, is falling further behind America and will be eclipsed by Asia soon, if it hasn't been already. There's a reason I decided to study Asia in college, not Europe...

There you go! Have at each other!

[Spiffor]

I don't really believe in the economic decline of Europe. There will be a relative decline of western Europe, but I think it'll be offset by Central Europe reaching higher levels.

Europe has quite a few economic strengths, such as a fairly low corruption, a very well educated population, good to excellent infrastructure, and very stable politics.

What Europe lacks most, in economic matters, is imaginativeness and creativity. But I don't see Europe as being significantly worse than the others in this regard.

[Drake Tungsten]

What Europe lacks most, in economic matters, is imaginativeness and creativity.

You may be right on that. It seem like the imaginativeness and creativity of Americans is one of our country's major advantages, in economic as well as other endeavors.

[Ramo]

The 4th Amendment is one of the things that makes this country unique, and great. To hell with Republicans who want to frenchify our civil liberties.

[Drake Tungsten]

The French are better at stopping terrorism than we are.

France

[Pekka]

UMmm.. that makes absolutely no sense.

Who are the loudest to criticize? The people. OVer the internet, bashing happens. Why would the people NOT bash Bush for wiretaps? Because the people are afraid this might be the same in their own country? Uh .. no? They have no agenda on it.

More likely because Europeans, in general, DO NOT CARE about some wiretaps. Why? Because it's not news worthy these days. Hey, if you want to break the laws and listen to your own people, go ahead. Why would anyone get upset? You should get upset. Furthermore, like I said, it's not big news at all, it doesnt' concern us. I, for example, don't care about that news. I do care about news of GB, about wars and stuff. They are kind of ..in different level of importance and caliber, yes?

If we talk about leaders, again, why would they care about this? You say this is done by them also, which might be true, but even if not, why would they get so upset about it? This is the least of reasons to bring up any tensions to transatlantic relations, which going to better direction.

Also Europe is facing its own big news, like the whole cartoon thing and even if not that, people rather watch the Olympics at the moment. That is to say, Dubya is not news now. Deal with it!

Even Cheney is not news now, after he shot his buddy accidentally. Normally that would bring more response, as in ha ha, but it's the Olympics and we have bigger concerns.

Usually, Europe has had, or some European countries, some things in consideration such as what affects us. Wars affects us. Torture scandals affects us indirectly. And we will get punished for it too, we're westerners. More targetting. So, this doesn't really affect us, the wiretap thing. So that alone makes no sense to start big bashings, why bring up tensions because we're not affected by thsi at all? It wouldn't make sense.

Unless of course you see these two powers as opposite, taking a bash at each other at every possible moment, alas, you must be disappointed now

And there are other EUro news as well, such as the British forces and the beatings in Iraq, THAT concerns us and also is more relevant to us than some freaking stinking wiretaps.

They are your wiretaps, you shouldn't be looking over your shoulders if someone is bashing you for it, you should be concerned about your own privacy, and if not, then you don't deserve it in the first place. Kind of.

Ta-ta!

[BlackCat]

I know that there has been a lot "cry wolf" about european economics for at least two decades, but it hasn't happend yet.

About the wiretapping - well, it's illegal, so it (almost) not done.

[Pekka]

"I've been saying for a long time now that it's hard to get up in arms about the Patriot Act and other US national security measures used in the War On Terror when obviously free European countries have been doing the same or worse for decades now."

Also if you bring up such accusations, please do back it up with at least something.

And if this was true, what does it have to do with 'this makes it more difficult ot fight patriot act'?

wake up and smell the coffee, you have patriot act, we don't. FACT

[Ramo]

The French are better at stopping terrorism than we are.

France

The French happen to be a somewhat smaller target for al-Qaeda.

In his State of the Union address, President Bush highlighted the case of 9/11 hijackers Khalid Al-Midhar and Salem Al-Hazmi to make the case for his so-called "terrorist surveillance program," which is actually a domestic wiretapping program which may have been used against ordinary Americans. Bush claimed Al-Midhar and Al-Hazmi made phone calls within the US that could have been intercepted if his wiretapping program were in place.
Imagine, the 9/11 plot could have been stopped if only those pointy-headed bureaucrats at FISA and their Democratic shills hadn't been in the way!

In fact, Al-Midhar bought his plane ticket for Flight 77 with his real name. At the time, he was wanted by the FBI and CIA for attending a terrorist meeting in Malaysia. He was also on a State Department watch list called TIPOFF. Al-Hazmi also bought a ticket for Flight 77 using his real name. And he shared an address as 9/11 hijacker Nawaq Alhazmi. Al-Midhar, for his part, was living with Mohammed Atta, the ringleader of the plot.
Al Gore brought these facts forward in his 2003 speech, "Freedom and Security," and to date, no one has challenged him.

The point is, if existing programs had been utilized properly, and the FBI had conducted simple searches for common addresses among wanted terrorists living in the US, the 9/11 plot might have been foiled. Besides being illegal, Bush's domestic wiretapping program was -- and is -- unnecessary in protecting America from terrorism. This raises questions about the White House's motives for implementing such a program. When the dust clears and the real targets of this program are revealed, will they turn out to be suspected terrorists, or ordinary Americans? Bush's failure to marshal credible justification suggests it will be the latter.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/bushs-wiretapping-distor_b_14864.html

[Imran Siddiqui]

I've been saying for a long time now that it's hard to get up in arms about the Patriot Act and other US national security measures used in the War On Terror when obviously free European countries have been doing the same or worse for decades now.

Since the stinky Eurocoms are doing it, we should too?

[Pekka]

And you've been saying euros wiretaps illegally their nations for how long? Unless you provide something, something at least, you know this is nothing but a troll.. EVIL AMERICAN TROLL AT THAT!

[Drake Tungsten]

Also if you bring up such accusations, please do back it up with at least something.

I linked to an entire article on the subject...

The French happen to be a somewhat smaller target for al-Qaeda.

They also have a much larger and much more radical Muslim population within their own borders, yet they've managed to avoid a 9/11 (or even 7/7) scale attack.

Since the stinky Eurocoms are doing it, we should too?

I personally don't think we should allow wiretapping as freely as they do, but I also don't think that the wiretaps approved by the President are a grave threat to freedom in America. England, Italy and the Netherlands all remain free countries, despite their extensive use of wiretapping.

[Agathon]

Damn you Drake!! You should be trolling my gay marriage thread, not wasting time on this irrelevant rubbish!!!!11!!!

[Drogue]

Re: Euro two-fer!!!

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
It's been kind of boring around here. Time for a little US-EU strife, I think. First article...

For Europeans, scolding the Bush administration for everything from Guantanamo to the Iraq War to secret CIA prisons has become a full-time job. But when it comes to the American scandal over President Bush's warrantless wiretaps, there's been a curious reaction from the other side of the Atlantic: silence. Where is the European outrage?

European restraint may arise from a fear of hypocrisy. The fact is that in much of Europe wiretapping is de rigueur—practiced more regularly and with less oversight than in the United States. Most Europeans either don't know about this or, more likely, simply don't care.

http://www.slate.com/id/2136147/

I've been saying for a long time now that it's hard to get up in arms about the Patriot Act and other US national security measures used in the War On Terror when obviously free European countries have been doing the same or worse for decades now.

Actually, I think this stems far more from the fact that US wiretapping is only in the US, whereas Iraq and Guantanamo affect other countries citizens. Moreover, torture and wiretapping are very different things. I couldn't care less if the government listens to my calls, but I would care if they were torturing people.

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Cartoons and riots made the headlines in Europe last week, but a far less fiery event, the publication of an academic study, might shed greater light on the future of the Continent. The Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, headquartered in Paris, released a report, Going for Growth, that details economic prospects in the industrial world. It is 160 pages long and written in bland, cautious, scholarly prose. But the conclusion is clear—Europe is in deep trouble. These days we all talk about the rise of Asia and the challenge to America, but it might well turn out that the most consequential trend of the next decade will be the economic decline of Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11298986/site/newsweek/

I know this one will probably piss some people off, but Zakaria isn't saying anything that a perceptive observer hadn't noticed already. Europe, despite pretensions to becoming a counterweight to the power of the US, is falling further behind America and will be eclipsed by Asia soon, if it hasn't been already. There's a reason I decided to study Asia in college, not Europe...

Surely it's doing the same to the US? This is about the rise of Asia, not the decline of Europe.

[Ramo]

They also have a much larger and much more radical Muslim population within their own borders, yet they've managed to avoid a 9/11 (or even 7/7) scale attack.

You missed the point.

I'm still curious as to exactly how greater wiretapping authority, or the erosion of our civil liberties in general, would've stopped 9/11.

And it's good that you brought up 7/7, since the Brits aren't known for their reticence to use wiretaps.

England, Italy and the Netherlands all remain free countries, despite their extensive use of wiretapping.

At least their wiretaps are, you know, based on actual law rather than some half-witted legal theory about the inherent authority of the leader to spy on domestic persons outside of legislative authorization.