Sweden aims for oil-free economy within 15 years

[Japher]

he did put out a lot of hot air

in case you really don't know where MtG is:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=148034

[BlackCat]

Where is Winston with his swedish princess pics when they are needed ?

[Chemical Ollie]

The heat is on

Duck tape is good for many things!

[Zkribbler]

[Barnabas]

could something like this be planned in a more libertarian country without such a strong state as sweden?

will the problems we will face with energy in the future cause an increase in state intervention?

[notyoueither]

One side of me says 'boo, use more oil!'

The other says 'go, Sweden!'

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Japher


I don't know guys... I might need more than one

GREAT DUCK

[Dinner]

Just another stupid politician making grand claims which won't ever come true. Surely, even the most idealistic person has learned to laugh when a politician makes claims of dramatic changes which, of course, will always take place looooooooonnnnnnnnngggggg after they've left office. It's free publicity for them since they can always claim it is their successor's fault that their pie in the sky dreams didn't become reality.

[Urban Ranger]

It depends on how far along they are in energy conservation.

You can save a lot of energy by walking to the corner store instead of driving there

[Dinner]

Sweden has a great mass transit system in most of its cities and the high gas taxes have already eliminated most of the unnecissary automobile use. People walk, ride a bike, or take mass transit there in much higher rates then in most other western countries so it is hard to see further big savings in transportation.

The fool's dream that fossil fuel power plants can all be replaced with solar or wind power. They're good for a boost during peak power usage times (and so are useful) but they aren't reliable enough to replace base power production. It is telling that 50 years since after solar was invented and 50 years worth of massive subsidies it still only produces a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of an exajoule world wide. Total world demand last year was around 440 exajoules of electricity while all reknewables combined (including such spuriusly designated "reknewables" like burning garbage) account for less then 0.5 exajoules world wide. Most of that 0.5 is produced by hydro or the burning of garbage (which is extremely polluting and bad for the environment).

Geothermal and hydro are nice if you have the specific geologic and geographic areas where they can be built; which is very few places on the Earth. For producing base load power our choices are either fossil fuels or nuclear power plants. Fossil fuels pollute to high hell and they are the cause of global warming so the only real choice for someone who actually cares about combating global warming is nuclear power.

Solar is nothing more then a toy for rich people since the average plant utilization is around 10%. That means the peak rated 10 MW solar plant which the media coos endlessly over really only produces an average of 1 MW per hour and that 1 MW is costs at least an order of magnitude more then nuclear or fossil fuel power on a per megawatt basis. Wind is moderately better but requires lots of space, can't store power generated during windy periods, can't produce power during periods without wind, and cannot scale output to demand the way other types of power plants can. That they're claiming to be against nuclear and fossil fuels just shows they are idiotic extremists who don't have a real plan to do much of anything. Instead they're just grandstanding for some free publicity knowing their claims will never get any where close to reality.

[Dinner]

I don't blame them. Bush recently made similarly stupid and false claims. He claimed America would consume 75% less oil in 15 years (long after he'd left office) but did absolutely nothing to improve efficiency or decrease demand. It is free for a politician to claim "In 20 years everything will be different" but the truth is revealed by their policies and Bush's policies, like the Swedish government's policies" is to keep doing more of the same so no meaningful changes will not occur.

Edit: typos

[Zkribbler]

I remember asking on OT how long it'll be before we get fusion. The answer I got back was that it's estimated to be 50 years.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Oerdin
The fool's dream that fossil fuel power plants can all be replaced with solar or wind power. They're good for a boost during peak power usage times (and so are useful) but they aren't reliable enough to replace base power production.

You're still thinking about centralised power production. What if every home, school, and office generates its own power? The deficit can then be covered by hydro plants.

[DaShi]

How would every home, school, and office generate its own power, let alone be able to afford the process?

[:) Smiley]

Lots of hamster wheels.

Seriously though, there is fuel cell generation using natural gas, hydrogen, and other related substances in a way that the only exhaust produced are C02 and water. This can be more efficient than "centralised" power plants since the power plants are located far from the central city. The gas still needs to come from somewhere though.

Solar ain't cheap, but it's not that expensive either, and the average two-story house in the average climate can generate most of the electricity it needs with panels.

The real gains are to be made through efficiency. Widespread use of LED lighting, hybrid cars, better designed buildings, and other measures can cut energy use by 1/3rd.