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  • #46
    Please, an enclaved "state" (similar to what was proposed in the late 90s) is no state at all. Yes, we'll give you seperate enclaves where we control the boundaries of. I mean that's ridiculous. It's like saying, you can have local governance, but we'll always be there just in case we need to grab you again.

    And explain to me how giving the land to Jordan is creating a "Palestinian" state?
    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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    • #47
      It wouldn've ended the Israeli occupation, even if instead of a Palestinian state there was a larger Jordanian/Palestinian one (although what happens to Gaza in that scenario?).

      I don't think LotM specified he was discussing a Palestinian state... he was discussing the end of the occupation. Not necessarily the same thing.

      -Arrian
      grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

      The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


        And explain to me how giving the land to Jordan is creating a "Palestinian" state?
        Please explain to me how giving land to the Palestinians would have resulted in peace with Egypt, Syria and Jordan?
        "I read a book twice as fast as anybody else. First, I read the beginning, and then I read the ending, and then I start in the middle and read toward whatever end I like best." - Gracie Allen

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        • #49
          And Pekka was just talking about having the 'terrorists win', which I said already happened because of discussions of a Palestinian state... or are you saying that people wouldn't have cared one bit if the terrorism was happening against Jordan?
          “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
          - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

          Comment

          • #50
            Originally posted by Edan
            Please explain to me how giving land to the Palestinians would have resulted in peace with Egypt, Syria and Jordan?
            What in the Hell does that have to do with anything?

            And if you hadn't noticed, Isreal is at peace with Egypt and Jordan.
            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

            Comment

            • #51
              Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
              And Pekka was just talking about having the 'terrorists win', which I said already happened because of discussions of a Palestinian state... or are you saying that people wouldn't have cared one bit if the terrorism was happening against Jordan?
              Terrorism lost in Jordan. (ie, Black September)
              "I read a book twice as fast as anybody else. First, I read the beginning, and then I read the ending, and then I start in the middle and read toward whatever end I like best." - Gracie Allen

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


                What in the Hell does that have to do with anything?
                Why should Israel give territory to a third party (or a second party, for that matter) if it doesn't result in peace? Land for Nothing?
                "I read a book twice as fast as anybody else. First, I read the beginning, and then I read the ending, and then I start in the middle and read toward whatever end I like best." - Gracie Allen

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                  Please, an enclaved "state" (similar to what was proposed in the late 90s) is no state at all. Yes, we'll give you seperate enclaves where we control the boundaries of. I mean that's ridiculous. It's like saying, you can have local governance, but we'll always be there just in case we need to grab you again.

                  And explain to me how giving the land to Jordan is creating a "Palestinian" state?
                  1. An enclaved state has been attacked as not viable. Thats why Jordanian involvement is key. The West Bank wouldnt be a state on its own, it would be part of Jordan, which is viable without any part of the West Bank, and is no less so with parts of the West Bank.

                  2. Israel WILL always be "there". Thats a geographic fact. There just isnt that much room between the Jordan River and the Sea. If you want a Pal state in the West Bank, then you want one in proximity to Israel. And Israel will grab whatever it has to if its security is threatened.

                  3. As Arrian points out, i didnt say anything about a Palestinian state in this context. I said if there had been no Pal violence in the late 80s, there might be a Pal Jordanian confed, and that the Pals would probably be better off. You said Oh, did Israel really want to withdraw, and I showed evidence that Labour Govts, at least, did.
                  "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                    And Pekka was just talking about having the 'terrorists win', which I said already happened because of discussions of a Palestinian state... or are you saying that people wouldn't have cared one bit if the terrorism was happening against Jordan?
                    Pekka said that if concessions are made to Hamas under the current circumstances, this will be a victory for terror which will encourage more.

                    He was correct, IMO.

                    You responded that terrorism already won, cause it "brought the pal problem to world attention"

                    Which was terribly unclear as to chronology, as you never clarified when the pal problem was NOT before the world, when Pal terrorism began, or when the problem became one of world attention.

                    I then tried to clarify things with a review of history, and instead of clarifying your own statement, you made silly responses to mine.
                    "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by lord of the mark
                      Hamas can't just change in one day. Especially when you consider that the hardliners are still very influent. As a result, I think it'll take time for Hamas to soften. Just like it took years to the PLO to soften.


                      And the PLO was in exile while that happened, not in power a qassem rockets range from Israeli towns. .
                      Arafat was also in an especially weakened state because of the disasterous decision to support the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.
                      "I read a book twice as fast as anybody else. First, I read the beginning, and then I read the ending, and then I start in the middle and read toward whatever end I like best." - Gracie Allen

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                      • #56
                        As Arrian points out, i didnt say anything about a Palestinian state in this context.


                        And I'd been discussing a Palestinian state since the beginning. I'm sure that if Jordan was given the West Bank, we'd be talking (well much less of us, I'm sure) about terrorism in Jordan.
                        “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                        - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                        Comment

                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                          As Arrian points out, i didnt say anything about a Palestinian state in this context.


                          And I'd been discussing a Palestinian state since the beginning. I'm sure that if Jordan was given the West Bank, we'd be talking (well much less of us, I'm sure) about terrorism in Jordan.
                          Why? Was the PLO attacking Jordan or Egypt prior to '67?
                          "I read a book twice as fast as anybody else. First, I read the beginning, and then I read the ending, and then I start in the middle and read toward whatever end I like best." - Gracie Allen

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Edan
                            Why? Was the PLO attacking Jordan or Egypt prior to '67?
                            Do you recall Black September (though that was a result of clashes after 1967 to 1970)? I'm sure that after the PLO got itself organized, it most definetly would have moved against Jordan in the 80s or 90s.
                            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                            Comment

                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


                              Do you recall Black September (though that was in 1970)?
                              Since I mentioned it several posts back, yes.

                              But their efforts ended when Jordan ejected them from the country. It was a sideshow from the main goal of attacking Israel.

                              I'm sure that after the PLO got itself organized, it most definetly would have moved against Jordan in the 80s or 90s.
                              The PLO and Fatah seemed organized enough to attack Israel prior to '67.
                              "I read a book twice as fast as anybody else. First, I read the beginning, and then I read the ending, and then I start in the middle and read toward whatever end I like best." - Gracie Allen

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                                As Arrian points out, i didnt say anything about a Palestinian state in this context.


                                And I'd been discussing a Palestinian state since the beginning. I'm sure that if Jordan was given the West Bank, we'd be talking (well much less of us, I'm sure) about terrorism in Jordan.
                                in case youve missed it, weve had terrorism in Jordan these past few years anyway.

                                Would there be an intifada against Jordan? I cant say for sure - I dont think the West bank was completely quiet for the Jordanians pre-67, but it wasnt exactly an antijordanian intifada. It would depend on how skillfully they managed it i suppose.

                                But I didnt say thered be no terrorism, or no violence. I said the Pals would have been better off.

                                You said "terror won" cause it put the Pals on the agenda. Again, in the absence of a chronology, its hard to discuss that claim.
                                "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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