Hamas 'ready to talk to Israel'

[Dinner]

Originally posted by rah
I'm skeptical myself. Demand something they're not going to get in order to say they tried and hope to get some financial support since they appear reasonable.

Time will tell but I won't hold my breath.

Isreal should demand a statement of the right to exist before they concede anything more.

I agree that seems to be the goal and that is exactly what Israel should do. Hamas needs to renounce terrorism and agree that Israel has a right to exist before they can get any peace deal. Israel has already shown good faith by giving land now it is the Palestinian's turn.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Hamas could change its charter, as the PLO did. Until they did so, the PLO leaders made excuses about how hard it was to change the charter. Mashal could do the same. He doesnt even admit that the Hamas charter is a problem.

My take on this is "give it time". Hamas has won the elections not two weeks ago. They are confronted with domestic challenges, as well as with uncertainty on the Israeli side (it still is not certain who'll win).

Hamas can't just change in one day. Especially when you consider that the hardliners are still very influent. As a result, I think it'll take time for Hamas to soften. Just like it took years to the PLO to soften.

Spiff, Im disappointed, you seem to be forgetting things I thought youd learned. Most Israels DONT see their position in the territories as an apartheid empire. They ARE willing to get out in order to get peace. Land for peace, thats been the dovish mantra for 30 years. Well that means land for PEACE. Not an excuse for peace, not a truce that some dress up as evidence that the other side at least doesnt expect to destroy Israel any time soon. Peace. Real peace. A final end to the conflict. A dropping of ANY further claims. Any claims to even one more hectare of Israel soil, once the final boundary is agreed. If you think Israel will settle for anything less, or will negotiate towards anything less, id like to have some of what youre smoking.

I don't think that the Hamas' proposals are good for the future of the region. A "long term truce" is indeed not a project one can trust.

However, I think this news is indicative of Hamas' willingness to change. Some time ago, Israel was only some Satan one shouldn't discuss with. Then, Hamas has discussed about truces, and even showed some respect for these truces. After that, Hamas acknowledged the legitimacy of the Palestinian pseudo-State, by joining the elections and now winning them. Now, Hamas can accept to discuss with Israel.

I'm not saying that the current situation is good. But I think it indicates a progression toward something better. As it is, negociations with hamas can't result in anything acceptable to the Israelis, but that might be different tomorrow, especially if Hamas becomes used to negociating.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Well, considering that Hamas still calls for the destruction of Israel IIRC, Mashal can't just trample on this.

Oddly the world expects Israeli politicians to trample on their election pledges all the time.

[Arrian]

How nice of Hamas. Bah. If they came out and said they are willing to discuss a full and final peace settlement with Israel, then that's something new and something to pursue. This isn't.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Spiffor

My take on this is "give it time". Hamas has won the elections not two weeks ago. They are confronted with domestic challenges, as well as with uncertainty on the Israeli side (it still is not certain who'll win).

Thats what Hamas wants. Time to consolidate power. Thats what this is about, buying time. Is europe ready to sell?

Hamas can't just change in one day. Especially when you consider that the hardliners are still very influent. As a result, I think it'll take time for Hamas to soften. Just like it took years to the PLO to soften.

And the PLO was in exile while that happened, not in power a qassem rockets range from Israeli towns. They were NOT allowed into power in the territories until they changed. That was the deal - a Pal civil authority, in exchange for recognition of Israel. This represents a sundering of that deal.

However, I think this news is indicative of Hamas' willingness to change. Some time ago, Israel was only some Satan one shouldn't discuss with. Then, Hamas has discussed about truces, and even showed some respect for these truces. After that, Hamas acknowledged the legitimacy of the Palestinian pseudo-State, by joining the elections and now winning them. Now, Hamas can accept to discuss with Israel.

A change in tactics.

I'm not saying that the current situation is good. But I think it indicates a progression toward something better. As it is, negociations with hamas can't result in anything acceptable to the Israelis, but that might be different tomorrow, especially if Hamas becomes used to negociating.

Whatever progress is because they feel isolated, by Fatah, by Israel, by the US, AND by the EU. If you want more progress you have to keep demanding it of them as a condition for diplomatic contact and aid.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

My take on this is "give it time". Hamas has won the elections not two weeks ago. They are confronted with domestic challenges, as well as with uncertainty on the Israeli side (it still is not certain who'll win).

yes, and the more Mashal makes statements that reaffirm Hamas denial of Isreels right to exists, the more likely a Likud victory becomes. And, I would suggest, if the EU decides to reach out to Hamas under these conditions, that will only seal a Likud victory.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Pekka
Right, to offer cease fire is the same as extortion now. That means we will shoot you if you don't accept our demands.

That's crap, and that's why it was bad that Hamas won. Why? Because it's difficult to deal with folks that have this past. Everything can be interpreted as 'terrorism works' if you give them something now. I mean without Hamas, a deal that would satisfy both parties would be great, but now does it mean giving victory to terrorist groups? Not just that, but will this fuel terrorism, as a working method? Difficult questions.

Terrorism already has worked. It was the only way to bring Isreal to the bargaining table in the first place. Before the intefada, there was no bargaining, there was no calls for a Palestinian state. The 'land for peace' is because Israel wants the terrorism to end. It is, really, the only thing the Palestinians got right now. And it's probably the reason Hamas isn't going all out, because it knows that is their only negotiating point.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


Terrorism already has worked. It was the only way to bring Isreal to the bargaining table in the first place.

Israel in the 1980s was eager to discuss the future of the West Bank with Jordan. The first intifada killed the Jordan option. To the extent that violence had a direct impact, it was not attacks on Israel, but attacks on the Palestinians who worked for the occupation authorities, which made it difficult to administer the territories. That violence was led by local Palestinians, not the PLO.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Whatever progress is because they feel isolated, by Fatah, by Israel, by the US, AND by the EU. If you want more progress you have to keep demanding it of them as a condition for diplomatic contact and aid.

Indeed.

[lord of the mark]

I would point out that Israel has expressed its willingness to keep talking to Abu Mazen.

IF theres going to be a compromise, i think its more likely to take the shape of a govt where Hamas gets only the inside portfolios, and the security forces either are under the control of a non-Hamas Interior Minister, or directly under the control of President Abbas. Hamas will simply stay out of the negotiating process. And I think THATS going to happen only if, as we seem to agree, the pressure is kept up.

[Fake Boris]

Re: Hamas 'ready to talk to Israel'

Originally posted by Spiffor
The thing I wonder most, however, is how Fatah will react. The cartoon affair seems to indicate that they're trying to play the maximalist card, more than Hamas. I hope they won't try to undermine Hamas by attacking Israel during truces.

Have they been involved in terror attacks lately?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Israel in the 1980s was eager to discuss the future of the West Bank with Jordan. The first intifada killed the Jordan option. To the extent that violence had a direct impact, it was not attacks on Israel, but attacks on the Palestinians who worked for the occupation authorities, which made it difficult to administer the territories. That violence was led by local Palestinians, not the PLO.

Please. The option of a Palestinian state was dead in the water until the Palestinians decided to use terrorism to bring the issue in the world's conciousness. If the Palestinians hadn't used terrorism then, there would be no withdrawl from Gaza now.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui




Please. The option of a Palestinian state was dead in the water until the Palestinians decided to use terrorism to bring the issue in the world's conciousness. If the Palestinians hadn't used terrorism then, there would be no withdrawl from Gaza now.

The Pals have used terrorism since 1929. They used cross border terrorism against Israels throughout the 1950s and 1960s, playing a large part in leading to the 6 day war. Yes, youre right, if not for that terror, there would be no withdrawl from Gaza, as Israel would never have taken Gaza.

I will assume instead you referring to the first intifada.

If the palestinians hadnt used violence then, there might have been negotiations leading to a Jordanian Palestinian confederation. I suspect Palestinians, Israelis, the region at large, and the world would have been much better off had that happened.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Suuuure... Isreal was always interested in peace and wanted to let the good Palestinians go. They never really wanted to occupy them and treat them like 2nd class citizens.

Give it a break.

[lord of the mark]

Re: Re: Hamas 'ready to talk to Israel'

Originally posted by Oncle Boris


Have they been involved in terror attacks lately?

Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade has made some attempts. The actual relationship of AAMB to the different factions in the Fatah leadership is a matter of some dispute.