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  • Divided State

    Have you seen this documentary. I encourage everyone to see it.

    Let's make it clear from the beginning. I spoke against F9/11. I thought it was brilliant masterpiece of propaganda. The techniques used in it, makes all the valid points null in it. So in my opinion it was garbage. Utter garbage.

    But this documentary has some merit. It focuses on the event around Michael Moore coming to Utah, to speak at a college and what happens before and around this. What can I say, except what's wrong with some people?

    It was disgusting display of bigotry, that's right, bigotry, ignorace and arrogance. The first climax is where Hannity comes to the college to speak. The guy has merits in speaking from where? Fascist jugend?

    The dude is even more transparent than Moore. And I dislike them both.

    The key issues in this documentary are freedom of speech. The ideal freedom in society could be described, partly, as individual freedoms, for you as a citizen to have the option, to make your own choice, to do what you want when it's not hurting others, you have the right and the responsibility almost, to expose yourself to different views, different experiences so you can grow as a person. You don't have to though, but what is a modern day d1ck is when you try to restrict OTHERS doign what they want, when it doesn't concern you.

    This is the issue with Moore. The other side tries to forbid Moore coming there to speak, because they strongly disagree with him and his views, they even see him as anti-american. OK. So what? Why can't they let him come and speak, they don't have to go there? They don't have to buy tickets. Then in return, while keeping this campagn alive, they get Hannity to speak there, who costs more than Moore (since money was an issue too), and that's no problem?

    No no.. let them all come, speak, the freedom of speech doesn't mean you are free to ban people from speaking. That's just idiocy.

    I recommend this documentary, it's very good and it shows some attitudes that I personally see have gotten lost somewhere in their joruneys.

    And as for someone who actually appreciates these freedoms and equality, meaning that I LIKE the fact that people who are totally different than me can do their thing, this is close to my heart. And using this whole anti-patriot thing, that's just weak. I know most people in my country are left from me. Do I think they are not patriotic? Absolutely not. I don't dare to make such bold accusations, even in debates, for shock value. Because it's simply not true.
    In da butt.
    "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
    THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
    "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

  • #2
    Moore is a clown, but he has some entertainment value!
    I love being beaten by women - Lorizael

    Comment


    • #3
      And with all this debate about the muslim world and freedom of speech, I think we all have some researching to do what it even means. Freedom of speech, and what it means, and WHY it is so important. It's not so that I can say what I think, it's that my opponents can say what they think too, and that debate is important. If we all go to our ltitle groups, liberal, conservative, democrat or what ever circles they be, who cares if we all agree? Of course we agree, since we are there, so where's the meaning of it all? No no no.. what matters is the debate and the exchange of ideas between the camps and individuals, there is the PROGRESS of our societies. THat's the bottom line and that's what has gotten us so far, it's not because one camp was so great, it's because the hybrid result of all camps was allowed, and we were able to implement it all.

      That's why it is important. It's not that I can say what I want and think, and get cheered by people who agree, it's that my opponents can do the same and we can then debate and make something out of it, or not. Because what protects my opponent, protects me. It's not what protects me doesn't protect my oppoennt because he has the 'wrong values'. That's crap right there, and looks like there are many people out there who have forgotten it.

      Don't get it twisted.
      In da butt.
      "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
      THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
      "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

      Comment


      • #4
        I guess my whole point is, you have the freedom to .. yes, oppose other opinions I guess. Even to oppose those other opinions to have their chance to be heard. But is that usage of freedom that is in the spirit of democracy? No way it is!!

        As a free person, yes, you can opt to GIVE your freedoms away, you can opt to form a party that will drive that issue, you can VOTE for the guy who says he will take all your freedoms away. That is if you want to. But is that the spirit of democracy? No it is not!

        If you take the opportunity to be heard from your opponents away, do you think they will give you the opportunity to be heard when they grow large? If you take someone elses time away to promote yours, do you think that is freedom, or that it is democracy, because YOU CAN do that? Do you think that you can give away your freedom in the name of freedom? Yes you can, but it's not the idea of democracy. It's not in the nature of it, once you give it away, you can't get it back. If you are TRULY free, you can't give your freedom away, you will always have it.

        Opposing other views is not the same thing as limiting their freedom, limiting their options. Trying to influence the most, drive your values and measures hardest is good, but do you do it on others time? You can, but it's not in the name of democracy you'll be doing it.

        So think about it. The political opponents are not your enemy. The enemy is the idea in your head, that since you are opposing teams, you should defeat the other. The enemy is the idea that victory is when you are strongest and can drive the most issues you want. The enemy is when you think your friend is your enemy. That's the enemy and if you don't see it, it will sucker you into things that are anti-democracy, therefore it is anti-freedom, therefore it is anti-west and the whole set of values in the west.

        These are facts, this is the unmodified truth of it, the nature of democracy and freedom, what we all think we defend, but we are not defending it until we defend all of us, there's no signing out, there's no punching it out early, we have more things relating that separating, the ones who focus on the separating are the ones who forget the relating, the ones who think they know democracy and freedom, but they don't until they learn.
        In da butt.
        "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
        THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
        "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

        Comment


        • #5
          Pekka, this is probably one of the best posts you have ever made here
          I love being beaten by women - Lorizael

          Comment


          • #6
            Well thanks, I just wanted to raise some thoughts, about being a jerk, the nature of freedom and democracy. Some anti-everything people think they have the right to oppose others by banning their opportunities to explore what they want to do, even when they could just stay home and do their thing. Meaning it's not really their business. That's limiting the freedom of others, which has nothing to do with democracy.

            Just because I have the freedom to try to oppose you doesn't mean it's because my freedom is so great. My freedom should step into the picture when we then start the debate, when we both call each other out. Meaning issues fighting issues. There's the progress and that's why it's important. It's pro-progress. There's no progress in limiting ourselves, or our opponents. You can, but you're being counter productive.
            In da butt.
            "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
            THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
            "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

            Comment


            • #7
              This is one of the reasons I have for leaving my active leftism behind me. Most "activists" today (mainly anarchists and such) have no concept of democracy. The solely go by "the law of the strongest" and happily act like fascists when dealing with fascist groups and other stuff. It makes me question the future of humanity. I mean we´re supposed to be the good guys...
              I love being beaten by women - Lorizael

              Comment


              • #8
                Leaving the left to the Stalinists does no one any good.
                Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                Comment


                • #9
                  No, but what can one man do? If you bang your head against the wall long enough you´ll get tired...
                  I love being beaten by women - Lorizael

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    che, yeah, how about leaving for what you think is best for you. Screw mob mentality, trying to hold you back. You owe to yourself to act as you think is right. Is this why you are still a socialist che, do they have their clamps on you? I can help you get out of there.. just let me know!
                    In da butt.
                    "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                    THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                    "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Dr Zoidberg
                      No, but what can one man do? If you bang your head against the wall long enough you´ll get tired...
                      You're not alone.

                      The other non-stalinists will feel more lonely if you leave though.
                      "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                      "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                      "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I´m not tired of socialism, just socialists...
                        I love being beaten by women - Lorizael

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          haha, loonie leftwing is crumbling
                          Originally posted by Serb:Please, remind me, how exactly and when exactly, Russia bullied its neighbors?
                          Originally posted by Ted Striker:Go Serb !
                          Originally posted by Pekka:If it was possible to capture the essentials of Sepultura in a dildo, I'd attach it to a bicycle and ride it up your azzes.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Just you wait. Imran will soon replace Zoidberg!
                            "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                            "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                            "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              iirc dinodoc has a "Project Che"
                              Originally posted by Serb:Please, remind me, how exactly and when exactly, Russia bullied its neighbors?
                              Originally posted by Ted Striker:Go Serb !
                              Originally posted by Pekka:If it was possible to capture the essentials of Sepultura in a dildo, I'd attach it to a bicycle and ride it up your azzes.

                              Comment

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