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  • #46
    Sorry about the delay in response. Had some work to do, plus I didn't notice at first.

    Anyway, I suspect that the brain's effectiveness is tied into its structure. It works on a fundamentally different level from current-generation computers, as you actually mentioned. Very little, if anything, is hardcoded, the system is just highly adaptable. There are massive numbers of neurons free to pursue many paths simultaneously. There's basically no "processing power" in a single neuron, as I understand it. Granted, my understanding of the CNS is limited, but I was under the impression that neurons in the brain or elsewhere just fire signals in different directions, either "on" or "off," much like ones and zeroes in binary code. So the brain itself is more like one enormous processor than billions of little ones. The loads of connections are the key to its function.

    I don't know that one failure in processing will crash the whole system; as you said, the internet can handle a few losses. What the internet couldn't handle, however, is a breakdown in cooling if all of its computers were to be crammed into one building. One cooling component breaks, an area overheats and melts down, the waste heat generated after the meltdown puts strain on nearby portions, they start to break down, predictable chain reaction ensues. In order to stem the damage you'd have to fix it posthaste, and that's a lot of cooling systems that could break down at any given time. Plus you need space for workers or even teeny repair bots to get through and fix it, which means delays in connections which add up quickly with that many connections, plus the costs of paying the workers or maintaining the robots, or, or, or. And one way or another it's still going to take a LOT more power than any human brain. Donald Trump might be able to afford uploading, or Bill Gates, but maybe ten other people on the planet would be able to realistically join them. We'd also have absolutely no way of knowing if the procedure actually transfered consciousness or just a replica that pretends to be.

    The bottom line is, this kind of project would demand an utterly obscene amount of resources, I suspect more than Earth could support. In order for the system to really be "better" than the organic one, you'd need to eventually reinvent biology entirely. A robotic brain is going to have a hard time interacting with a flesh body and processing its nutrients into power; unless you want to risk dying every time you forget to change a power pack (effectively tacking on a second, primitive "stomach"), you'll need a way to integrate it with our digestive systems, or else replace the digestive system entirely. And once you've done that, you'll need to work in the circulatory system somehow, redrawing the flow of blood now that none of it's going to the brain or else it needs to adapt to carrying different nutrients. And the circulatory system by necessity affects the immune system. And lord only knows how the endocrine will react to all this, so that'll have to be dealt with too. And it'll have to happen pretty close to simultaneously. Unless you want to be a brain in a jar/warehouse just simulating an existence, you can't just cheat on the little things like we did with the car. You'll have to replicate life itself if you want to "live."

    On the off-chance you do that, well, I guess you'll want a way to simulate a sense of taste for your new body, unless you want to never taste grilled steaks over the course of your milennia-long existence. And sex. You'll need "pleasure circuits," except that if given direct control over administrating pleasure that way rats tend to continually stimulate themselves nonstop and forget to do anything else. Given the tendency of nerds to accidentally starve to death while playing MMORPGs, there's at least a rough precedent for the human equivalent. Everything has to be redone from the ground up, and it basically has to copy the real-world model unless our superintelligence lets us imagine flavors that don't exist and sensations in body parts we've never had. You've got a lot of effort to reinvent the wheel, and all so you can be "more intelligent." It doesn't take a genius to figure out that there's not much point to it.
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    • #47
      Originally posted by Elok
      Sorry about the delay in response. Had some work to do, plus I didn't notice at first.

      Anyway, I suspect that the brain's effectiveness is tied into its structure. It works on a fundamentally different level from current-generation computers, as you actually mentioned. Very little, if anything, is hardcoded, the system is just highly adaptable. There are massive numbers of neurons free to pursue many paths simultaneously. There's basically no "processing power" in a single neuron, as I understand it. Granted, my understanding of the CNS is limited, but I was under the impression that neurons in the brain or elsewhere just fire signals in different directions, either "on" or "off," much like ones and zeroes in binary code. So the brain itself is more like one enormous processor than billions of little ones. The loads of connections are the key to its function.

      I don't know that one failure in processing will crash the whole system; as you said, the internet can handle a few losses. What the internet couldn't handle, however, is a breakdown in cooling if all of its computers were to be crammed into one building. One cooling component breaks, an area overheats and melts down, the waste heat generated after the meltdown puts strain on nearby portions, they start to break down, predictable chain reaction ensues. In order to stem the damage you'd have to fix it posthaste, and that's a lot of cooling systems that could break down at any given time. Plus you need space for workers or even teeny repair bots to get through and fix it, which means delays in connections which add up quickly with that many connections, plus the costs of paying the workers or maintaining the robots, or, or, or. And one way or another it's still going to take a LOT more power than any human brain. Donald Trump might be able to afford uploading, or Bill Gates, but maybe ten other people on the planet would be able to realistically join them. We'd also have absolutely no way of knowing if the procedure actually transfered consciousness or just a replica that pretends to be.

      The bottom line is, this kind of project would demand an utterly obscene amount of resources, I suspect more than Earth could support. In order for the system to really be "better" than the organic one, you'd need to eventually reinvent biology entirely. A robotic brain is going to have a hard time interacting with a flesh body and processing its nutrients into power; unless you want to risk dying every time you forget to change a power pack (effectively tacking on a second, primitive "stomach"), you'll need a way to integrate it with our digestive systems, or else replace the digestive system entirely. And once you've done that, you'll need to work in the circulatory system somehow, redrawing the flow of blood now that none of it's going to the brain or else it needs to adapt to carrying different nutrients. And the circulatory system by necessity affects the immune system. And lord only knows how the endocrine will react to all this, so that'll have to be dealt with too. And it'll have to happen pretty close to simultaneously. Unless you want to be a brain in a jar/warehouse just simulating an existence, you can't just cheat on the little things like we did with the car. You'll have to replicate life itself if you want to "live."

      On the off-chance you do that, well, I guess you'll want a way to simulate a sense of taste for your new body, unless you want to never taste grilled steaks over the course of your milennia-long existence. And sex. You'll need "pleasure circuits," except that if given direct control over administrating pleasure that way rats tend to continually stimulate themselves nonstop and forget to do anything else. Given the tendency of nerds to accidentally starve to death while playing MMORPGs, there's at least a rough precedent for the human equivalent. Everything has to be redone from the ground up, and it basically has to copy the real-world model unless our superintelligence lets us imagine flavors that don't exist and sensations in body parts we've never had. You've got a lot of effort to reinvent the wheel, and all so you can be "more intelligent." It doesn't take a genius to figure out that there's not much point to it.
      There may indeed be not much point to it, but i seriously doubt any sort of "uploading" would require more than brain compatible hardware and crazy volunteers. There is nothing to suggest this would not be possible.

      However speculation about the attractivness of uploading is premature imho. i was far more interested in asserting the feasibility of artificially matching or exceeding human intelligence than in advocating uploading. cooling such a machine even built with basically present day components would like only a matter of scaling up the cooling methods used for large supercomputers.

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      • #48
        "I realized that I no longer need a body."

        "But you don't have to remain a wretched human being forever. Mankind has finally found an exit. The network."

        "Here, there is a god."

        Anyway, it's no surprise that some people would try to form a cult around these kinds of ideas.
        “As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
        "Capitalism ho!"

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