What would it take to prove / disprove the existence of God?

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Elok


Okay....once again....I did not say that. Please remove the dark glasses from your eyes and the crack pipe from your mouth. All clean? Good. Read carefully:

"Nontheistic moral systems lack coherent justification for their directives. All human beings have some form of moral sense or inclination, but complex systems of belief are required to convert this vague sense into meaningful directions. Secular systems, while not innately 'bad,' do a poor job of explaining the end purpose of our moral urges. In the place of a reason, they typically use faulty definitions of terms or various forms of begging the question. The actual real-world implementation of any such system, whether secular or religious, depends greatly on the personality of the individual following it (among other things). I am not concerned with arguing specific moral directives at the moment. What I am concerned with is the more abstract problem of defining the idea of 'good' in a useful way."

I hope that was more clear to you.

Be assured, I neither wear dark glasses nor smoke crack. I just read what you write. If I read other things that you may think that you write, it might not be my fault. Just as an assurance - I don't blame it on your english, it might easily be better than mine. Still, I read what you write and I get another interpretation of your statements than you may think that you express.

In the above you have clearly moderated earlier statements since the claim now is that "Secular systems, while not innately 'bad,' do a poor job of explaining the end purpose of our moral urges" - that certainly doesn't match with earlier claims that you have made.

[Flip McWho]

The point is that we do have this sense of wonder without any reasonable explanation as to how we got this sense.

How about because we're sentient and we're curious about things? The sense of wonder is our curiousity at the natural feat that is the universe. We feel dwarfed by it, insignificant regardless of whether we believe the universe evolved as it is now or was created as it is now.

Personally I've always got more a sense of wonder about things because I believe it evolved how it did just because. Due to whatever cause that caused it. I don't find a sense of wonder in believing that a diety sat down so to speak and designed everything. It kinda ruins the magic.

Depends on how you see knowledge. Knowledge changes people. If we say that God is in fact unchanging, then he cannot gain or lose knowledge. By the same argument, he ought to be omniscient, because if he was less then omniscient, he could gain knowledge, and thus change over time.

In one sense I agree with you. Though, just because God is omnipotent (and thus unchanging considering he can't be more or less powerful) but again that doesn't relate onto God being omniscient. God being creator presumably would know all the laws by which the universe is founded upon. But this does not mean God cannot grow in knowledge. Knowledge does not have to mean scientific knowledge alone. God could change morally (possibly seen through Gods changing nature throughout the Bible whilst still retaining the attribute of omnipotence. Do you follow my point? I don't feel I'm being very clear. Basically the unchanging attribute isn't an encompassing attribute of God (possibly).

They are not requested? Haven't the folks who suffered from the holocaust wanted their suffering to be acknowledged? If it is just for the Jews to have the Germans atone for their sins even if they have not actually committed them, how can we be any different?

Acknowledging that bad **** happened in the past isn't comparable to Original Sin. The Germans do not have to do anything past admitting that Hitler's Germany wasn't the best. I acknowledge that original sin took place (if the bible were true) but I don't see why I should be held to it?

In fact, thats partly what I see in why Christ was killed. To atone for the sins of human kind. What is the only sin we all have in common? Original sin. Christ was killed to atone us for original sin. Thus cancelling out original sin. We're still ****ed so to speak because as you say we inherited the ability to sin or the weakness to sin. Thats why we must follow christs message and make our way to the happy place.

Isn't it only Catholics that still beat themselves up over original sin?

Actually, science has shown that most people can trace their ancestry to a few individuals, and that at certain points there have been significant portions of the human population killed through death and disease.

Yup know that, was just wondering how the story fitted into it. A few individuals does not a one male make.

What I have heard is that we are told God's plan only so far as it concerns ourselves.

That makes a lot of sense. Though some serious issues surrounding the hmm percieved superiorty of humans will come about for religious types though.

Free will doesn't necessarily imply that God does not care about us.

Free will has nothing to do with the question whats Gods purpose. Why does God exist? If you answer because God just does there is no reason why that logic can't be applied to the universe without God.

As for the rest I'll come back and answer later tonight (NZ Time of course). Peace

[Joseph]

Originally posted by Sava
Performing miracles at will would suffice.

Although I'd have to know for sure that it would be God and not some other supernatural entity capable of performing such acts.

It's clear that we aren't going to know the answer until we die. That much is certain. If there is a God, it's obvious that God has chosen to not reveal his existence to us. So then he doesn't want our worship. Therefore, we shouldn't worry about wasting our time trying to prove his existence or not. If he's out there, he's perfectly capable of revealing himself to us if he wants to.

What is clear though, is that we have the ability (whether it be God-given or not) to study our environment and the universe around us and learn for ourselves the secrets of existence for ourselves. It's clear that if there is a God, he doesn't want us just simply relying on "faith"... but rather, he wants us to use our abilities to figure out things for ourselves.

However... if there isn't a God, then clearly we ought to figure out things for ourselves and abandon this silly notion of faith. Because if there really isn't anything out there... if there really is no grand CREATOR of the universe... then we are really going to look pretty ****ing stupid praying to something and believing in something that isn't there.

He did reveal himself to us, through his son. And BTW he did appear to Abraham as a man. Abraham wash his feet and gave him dinner and then God told Abraham that his wife would give birth to a son.

[Joseph]

Originally posted by Tiamat
Why does everything have to be tangible? You don't see oxygen but you know it's there because you still breathe. It has been said if you have the faith of a mustard see you can move a mountain. Do you know how small a mustard seed is? That's the reality, that most of us don't even have enough faith to fill a mustard seed.

Has no one here experienced the power of prayer or a blessing from the universe if you will. I would venture to say that there are plenty of people on this board who have had some type of faith moving experience but won't mention it for fear of being slammed, but I would bet there are plenty here who have seen or been part of something spectacular.

The summer of 1958, I was 14 and I was swimning in a canal about a mile north of Castle Air Force Base, Atwater Calif. I was drowning and had lost all strength. A voice came into my head and told me that is was not my time to died, but it also told me that I had to fight. A moment later I had strength to try to swim again. A few moment later the people that were with me found a tree limb for me to grab and pull me to the side of the canal and pull me out. I was in the water alone.

[Bill3000]

God being creator presumably would know all the laws by which the universe is founded upon.

I would say that is impossible, due to the uncertaincy principle. How is it possible to know all of the laws of the universe if one cannot inheritly know everything? The uncertaincy principle is so important up to the point where it can pretty much create and destroy matter due to quantum fluctuations.

While I would agree that a perfect god would know all of the laws of the multiverse () and know how to manipulate it, I say that it is impossible for such a god to exist, unless he is created from the multiverse itself. And in the end, that isn't quite different from humanity.

He did reveal himself to us, through his son. And BTW he did appear to Abraham as a man. Abraham wash his feet and gave him dinner and then God told Abraham that his wife would give birth to a son.

Too bad there isn't any actual proof that Jesus was the son of god. It being faith and all. We're talking about proof here, not a person that has very little evidence to have even existed in sources other than the bible, much less be the son of god.

The summer of 1958, I was 14 and I was swimning in a canal about a mile north of Castle Air Force Base, Atwater Calif. I was drowning and had lost all strength. A voice came into my head and told me that is was not my time to died, but it also told me that I had to fight. A moment later I had strength to try to swim again. A few moment later the people that were with me found a tree limb for me to grab and pull me to the side of the canal and pull me out. I was in the water alone.

NDE? Who says it couldn't be your subconcsious telling yourself that? Circumstancial evidence rarely is feasible, especially in a case such as faith.

[Flip McWho]

And BTW he did appear to Abraham as a man. Abraham wash his feet and gave him dinner and then God told Abraham that his wife would give birth to a son.

I distinctly remember the bible I read said it was an angel of God that visited Abraham in the instance you describe.

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
I distinctly remember the bible I read said it was an angel of God that visited Abraham in the instance you describe.

Just as an angel visited Mary. I don't think God ever said to anyone they were with child.

[Flip McWho]

Well God did (through his angel, actually who did God actually speak too directly in the book? Moses at least, Jesus too, who else?) in the story Joseph told. Abrahmas missus had been barren for a long time and the angel left and said "next time you do it, God's got a present for you".

[Flip McWho]

Even though she was supposedly far too old too iirc.

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
"next time you do it, God's got a present for you".

I think thats just how its said in those new bibles using street language. I'll take my KJV Bible anyday.

[Flip McWho]

Actually I do wish to read the KJV Bible. I'm reading/read one that a JW chick gave me. New World Translation or some such things I think.

[Vince278]

There are too many versions. The KJV has the advantage (or disadvantage) of being the first in the English language. King James I commissioned a panel of diverse experts to do it right. AFAIK it took almost 20 years to complete.

[Flip McWho]

Yeah, I consider the KJV to be like the Bible in English mainly on account of it being the first.

[Elok]

Originally posted by BlackCat
In the above you have clearly moderated earlier statements since the claim now is that "Secular systems, while not innately 'bad,' do a poor job of explaining the end purpose of our moral urges" - that certainly doesn't match with earlier claims that you have made.

Dude, you are apparently the only one getting these "interpretations." Everybody else seems to understand me as saying what I actually said or think I said. And, unless you know things about my mental functions that I do not, what I have announced above has been my position for some time now; I don't think atheism automatically leads to immorality (my dad is agnostic, for crying out loud). Nor am I dumb enough to maintain that theism automatically leads to perfection. I think I was in fifth grade or so when I first heard about the atrocities that accompanied the crusades.

Be that as it may, please respond to what I'm saying now as opposed to what you think I said at time X (which I don't think I did).

[Elok]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
Actually I do wish to read the KJV Bible. I'm reading/read one that a JW chick gave me. New World Translation or some such things I think.

That version is said to be deliberately mistranslated as a form of support for some of JWs' more controversial dogma. IIRC, John 1:1 reads, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the word was a God" in that version? Little things like that.