Did Jesus exist? Court to decide

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


The Soviets put landers on the far side of the moon, and all the Apollo missions from 8 on went around the back side of the moon. It's been mapped and observed - no unicorns, nothing pink, and no holes to hide in.

Plenty of holes to hide in, actually.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat

The Soviets put landers on the far side of the moon, and all the Apollo missions from 8 on went around the back side of the moon. It's been mapped and observed - no unicorns, nothing pink, and no holes to hide in.

It´s probably a plot between the russian, american and martian government as well as the aliens in area 51 to keep the knowledge about the pink unicorn on the backside of the moon secret.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Odin

I am reading an intresting book called Empires of the Word: a Language History of the World, and in the section on the ancient Middle East, it talks about that the Amorites (the early Babylonians) mention an nomadic people in what is now Jordan speaking a West Semetic language they called the "haibru" settlling Canaan and Phoenecia around the middle of the 2nd ncentury BC. "Haibru" sounds like "Hebrew". In other words, The Phoenecians and the Israelites started out as the same ethnic group.

Thsi would have had to have taken place much earlier than the Second Century BC! By the Second Century BC the Babylonians had long been subjugated, first by the Persians, then by Greek dynasties. In fact Maccabees, one of the later books of the Old Testament took place during the era when Greek dynasties ruled the area once known as Babylon.

[civman2000]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


Thsi would have had to have taken place much earlier than the Second Century BC! By the Second Century BC the Babylonians had long been subjugated, first by the Persians, then by Greek dynasties. In fact Maccabees, one of the later books of the Old Testament took place during the era when Greek dynasties ruled the area once known as Babylon.

He probably meant second millenium BC.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

Plenty of holes to hide in, actually.

Not enought turns, chambers or a good enough aspect ratio for hiding. Lots of holes, but no hiding.

[Elok]

Again with the same old stupidity.

Violence in eastern religions: The Yamabushi and Sohei in Japan. The Yellow Turbans partially responsible for the fall of Han China. The Indian term for war, "cow protection." I haven't done dedicated scholarship, but I'm sure there are plenty of other examples. Human beings have been brutal and nasty throughout history. Lacking a religion to justify their behavior, they will turn to nontheistic ideologies, as in WWII.

The existence of Christ: Jesus was not the emperor of Rome. He was, initially, an obscure Jewish preacher who got into fights with the establishment. In the years after Constantine took over, local Christians would turn to persecuting various rival sects; we know a fair amount of destruction of literature was involved. Given that lots of the Gnostic/post-Gnostic types didn't believe Christ was a physical man, as the material world was innately evil...just one explanation. He was a controversial figure, you do the math.

[Berzerker]

the Pink Unicorn is camera shy

[Odin]

I meant second millenium BC.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
The 4 gospels were all written by people who claimed to have met him in person, by being his desciples.

There's no evidence to back this claim. Many biblical scholars hold that the Synoptic Gospels (Mark, Matthew, and Luke) were based, on a large part, on previous documents named variously as Q and L, that are now lost.

John is mostly propaganda.

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
You can claim that the gospels included and excluded in the Bible are biased in one direction or another, but all the gospels claim that Jesus was a true historical person.

Have you seen a holy book from any religion that claims their god(s) do not in fact exist? I seriously doubt that.

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
Has anyone ever doubted the existance of Muhammed, Confusius or Buddha?

This all boils down to historical evidence. As Seeker pointed out previously, none exists for a Jesus of Nazareth that remotedly resembles the description in the New Testament.

Not to mention all the internal contradictions in the NT.

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
How could a world religion be founded by a prophet that never existed? Religions don't pop up out of nowhere, they start in the mind of one person, the prophet himself.

As it was pointed out before, Christianity was largely founded by Paul the Apostle, not Jesus himself.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Oh, not to mention that even the Jesus Seminar believed that Jesus had existed, ultra-liberal christians.

Yes, the Jesus Seminar consists mostly of biblical scholars, not historians. They also have other interesting things to say about the bible as well.

Originally posted by CyberShy
Believing that Jesus never existed is really for those who have no clue. There's much more evidence for the existance of Jesus then for most people from that period, not to mention the millenia before 1AD.

As Seeker pointed out, there is no external historical record from uninterested parties to show that this is the case. This alone casts strong doubts on Jesus's historicity, given that he is supposedly to be a most extraordinary man.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

As Seeker pointed out, there is no external historical record from uninterested parties to show that this is the case. This alone casts strong doubts on Jesus's historicity, given that he is supposedly to be a most extraordinary man.

Hardly, given that there is also virtually no external historical record from uninterested parties to show the historicity of anyone in Judea from that era. A few references to Herod Antipas, fewer to his brothers, a few more to Herod the Great, two to Pontius Pilate (one physical, one literary), and one piece of physical evidence relating to the house of David.

Given the lack of evidence for nearly anyone else specific, perhaps Judea was nearly unpopulated at the time? 2000 years and multiple episodes of war, conquest and destruction wouldn't have any effect on the availability of contemporaneous historical records, now would it?

[Impaler[WrG]]

Oh, and about the Pink Unicorn behind the moon. Let's just start with saying that there's actually nobody who's believing in the Pink Unicorn while there are 2 billion christians. and about 5,5 billion people in this world who believe in God. That doesn't make God automaticly exist, though it makes it a little pathatic to compare God to some Pink Unicorn that didn't influence civilization on this planet at all and isn't worshipped by anyone.

Though its adirable that you admit that Opinion dose not make god "automaticaly exist" you still seem to indicate that Opinion has some "weight" and Billions of them add up to a lot more respect and consideration for God, it even seems you sugjest that it constitues a form of Evidence for God.

For the Logical mind opinion can never be evidence. The only inputs to a Logical evaluation are facts and postulates. God has billions of people that belive in him/it and zero factual evidence (infact it violates practicaly all know physical laws). The Pink Unicorn has identical evidence and dosen't violate any physical laws (some wildly alien biology might live in a vacume and feed off sunlight). The differnece in public opinion dosn't hurt the unicorn theory or help the god theory at all. Thus the Pink Unicorn is deemed more likly to exist then God.

Ofcorse Both Theories are deemed less likly then our currently accepted theory of a Godless, pinkunicornless universe rules by the laws of physics as we know them.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Hardly, given that there is also virtually no external historical record from uninterested parties to show the historicity of anyone in Judea from that era.

One of the reasons could be that nobody of any interest existed during that time period.

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Given the lack of evidence for nearly anyone else specific, perhaps Judea was nearly unpopulated at the time?

I could remember a number of Jewish uprisings during the time period, causing the Romans some small trouble.

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
2000 years and multiple episodes of war, conquest and destruction wouldn't have any effect on the availability of contemporaneous historical records, now would it?

Possibly.

Jesus of Nezereth was not exactly a nobody according to the Synoptic Gospels. Thus, why didn't Josephus (a Jew himself IIRC) have written something down on him? As we stand now, the passage in Antiquity is strongly suspected to be a latter forgery.

[Stuie]

Case dismissed:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/02/10/italy.christ.ap/index.html

But the fight goes on:

"This is not surprising but it doesn't mean it all ends here," he said, adding that he's considering taking the case to the European Court of Human Rights.

[Dr Strangelove]

Didn't Jerusalem get sacked by the Romans about 30+ years after Jesus died? Wouldn't the records have gotten sacked also?