Did Jesus exist? Court to decide

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
Just because you don't belive he was the Son of God doesn't disqualify him as one of the greatests prophets ever.

But it does disqualify you from being a Christian. I don't deny the power of his teachings, I just believe that power comes from their effect on man, not on being a message from God.

[Flip McWho]

Theres definitely a lack of unbaised evidence for the existence of Jesus, but thats got little to do with his message. The message is still a good one regardless of whether christ lived or not. However his existence is important to the religion and the religion has little to do with his message.

As for that crap about it makes people give more to charity and a better person yada yada yada is full of crap. I'm a heck of a lot more peaceful than many christians and atheists combined. And we don't revel in the brutish nature either. Another crap statement.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
Moses basically started Judaism.. (There was some prehistory there.. but)

Jm

Actually, there was no exodus from Egypt (The ancient Egyptians rarely used slaves), though they did come from East of the Jordan River. I am reading an intresting book called Empires of the Word: a Language History of the World, and in the section on the ancient Middle East, it talks about that the Amorites (the early Babylonians) mention an nomadic people in what is now Jordan speaking a West Semetic language they called the "haibru" settlling Canaan and Phoenecia around the middle of the 2nd ncentury BC. "Haibru" sounds like "Hebrew". In other words, The Phoenecians and the Israelites started out as the same ethnic group. They only started to differ when the people in the south started prefering the worship Yaweh over other West Semetic deities, such as Baal, Asherah, and The high-god El (which finds it's way into names such as Michael, etc.). Yaweh was originally a subordinate of El designated as the patron god of the Hebrews (where the first five books of the Old Testament now say "angel" or "messanger" of God, it originally ment Yaweh), he was originally THIER god, not the ONLY god, which is why "You shall have no other gods before me" is in the 1st commandment. The Hebrews didn't become truely monotheistic until the Babylonian exile exposed them to Zoroastrianism.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Odin


Actually, there was no exodus from Egypt (The ancient Egyptians rarely used slaves)

I know of that scholarly work

but still, Jewish mythos goes to Moses... (wherever he came from)

JM

[Odin]

Originally posted by Jon Miller

but still, Jewish mythos goes to Moses... (wherever he came from)

JM

Well, Moses seems to be derived from the Egyptian name ending -mose. Maybe he was an Egyptian priest that supported the quasi-monotheistic sun worship of Pharoh Akenaten that went into exile when Akenaten's successors (Tut was Akenaten's son, IIRC) restored the old polytheism. The reference about a "pharoh that did not know Joseph" might refer to the dynasty change after Tut's early death.

[Robert]

Looks to me those loony history revisionists may have a point. It's the people that take Jesus' historical excistence for granted without a single piece of evidence that look suspicious to me.

It worries me that you think they have no single piece of evidence. And since we're talking about things from a long time ago, everything will look suspicious in one or another way.

They only started to differ when the people in the south started prefering the worship Yaweh over other West Semetic deities, such as Baal, Asherah, and The high-god El (which finds it's way into names such as Michael, etc.). Yaweh was originally a subordinate of El designated as the patron god of the Hebrews

YHWH and El are the same in the Bible.
God is called El / Elohiym in example in Genesis 1.
And that's indeed why a lot of biblical names end with el. It's all "In God we trust" / "Gift from God" / "Servant from God"

And judaism indeed has never been monotheistic. In fact neither is christianity, since christianity claims there are other gods as well. Oftenly called angels. "Theos" isn't just used to name God (or Jesus) in the New Testament. There are other powers as well.

Though it's monotheistic in the sence that there's one supreme God which whom no-one can compete. In true polytheistic religions there's mostly one god who's the first among his equals.

Oh, and about the Pink Unicorn behind the moon. Let's just start with saying that there's actually nobody who's believing in the Pink Unicorn while there are 2 billion christians. and about 5,5 billion people in this world who believe in God. That doesn't make God automaticly exist, though it makes it a little pathatic to compare God to some Pink Unicorn that didn't influence civilization on this planet at all and isn't worshipped by anyone.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Berzerker


How does that support the argument that Christianity is somehow unique with no actual person or people starting it? I doubt these were started by a group of "prophets" but it hardly shows religion starting up without an author or authors.

WTF? What are you smoking?

Christianity, in all likelihood, was initiated by a 1st C AD Jewish preacher. Hinduism, contrariliwise, is what is called a "traditional" or "non-revealed" religion, one that does not begin with any single revelation, but grew out gradually from popular beliefs.

[Vince278]

I just read some of the proofs that the plaintiff is providing against the existance of Jesus. His arguments were difficult to follow and rambled on with little substance. Not a whole lot of sticking to the facts. It was kind of like reading one of CharlesBHoff's long posts on how Islam will triumph.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie

Has anyone ever seen a Christian fundie turn the other cheek?

yes

often

JM

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Odin


Well, Moses seems to be derived from the Egyptian name ending -mose. Maybe he was an Egyptian priest that supported the quasi-monotheistic sun worship of Pharoh Akenaten that went into exile when Akenaten's successors (Tut was Akenaten's son, IIRC) restored the old polytheism. The reference about a "pharoh that did not know Joseph" might refer to the dynasty change after Tut's early death.

I am familiar with that theory

JM

[Hueij]

Originally posted by CyberShy


It worries me that you think they have no single piece of evidence. And since we're talking about things from a long time ago, everything will look suspicious in one or another way.

Why does that worry you? What should worry you is that there is no historical evidence, not what I do or don't think...

And no, not everything from "a long time ago" does look suspicious.

[Vince278]

Anyone hear how the court case was going?

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by CyberShy

Oh, and about the Pink Unicorn behind the moon. Let's just start with saying that there's actually nobody who's believing in the Pink Unicorn while there are 2 billion christians. and about 5,5 billion people in this world who believe in God. That doesn't make God automaticly exist, though it makes it a little pathatic to compare God to some Pink Unicorn that didn't influence civilization on this planet at all and isn't worshipped by anyone.

Where do you have these numbers from?
After all this would mean that there are just around 1 billion people which are atheist or don´t believe in any of the monotheist religions (i.e. buddhists, hinduists and the like)

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
Has anyone ever doubted the existance of Muhammed, Confusius or Buddha?

I've run across otherwise rational people who don't believe Muhammad ever existed.

How could a world religion be founded by a prophet that never existed? Religions don't pop up out of nowhere, they start in the mind of one person, the prophet himself.

Well, not necessarily - Hinduism certainly, and Judaism most probably, did not originate with any one prophet.

They originated with multiple persons. That doesn't indicate that any specific one of them are fictional.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Sava


PROVE TO ME A PINK UNICORN DOESN'T LIVE BEHIND THE MOON

The Soviets put landers on the far side of the moon, and all the Apollo missions from 8 on went around the back side of the moon. It's been mapped and observed - no unicorns, nothing pink, and no holes to hide in.

Most evidence of those who were not rulers or elites associated with rulers from ~2000 or more years ago is anecdotal. Even when physical evidence existed, it's likelihood of surviving 2000 years without continuous, conscious and intelligent efforts at conservation are next to nothing.

It was less than a decade ago that the first physical evidence referring explicitly to a Davidic dynasty was discovered. IIRC, there is also precisely one piece of archaeological evidence of the existence of Pontius Pilate as the praefectus of Judea. (although near contemporaneous anecdotal evidence by Tacitus refers to him as a procurator, not a praefectus.

Heinrich Schliemann, among others, didn't do too badly relying on anecdotal evidence significantly older than 2000 years.