Did Jesus exist? Court to decide

[Berzerker]

Rufus

Christianity, as is commonly understood, is the beleif system that has existed for some 2000 years, and is founded upon the theology of Paul.

Paul wasn't exactly the model of mental stability... He's killing Christians one day and has a mental breakdown and sees Jesus the next. Call me Doubting Thomas but Jesus would have to appear before me to explain that one.

I cant accept Paul as an authority... He mouthed off about all sorts of things Jesus never mentioned, especially about women. And it appears there was an attempt to downplay Mary Magdalene as part of his anti-woman agenda. Paul's laundry list of dos and donts
gave Christians license to terrorise people in the name of Jesus.

I read a book about Paul "The Mythmaker" by some jewish scholar and he shows Jesus was actually on good terms with the Pharisees by analysing their debates over philosophy and religion. I'll stick with what has been attributed to Jesus before others made him God...

"Think not that I am come to bring peace. I bring not peace, but a sword"

Oh...I dunno...

He wasn't telling his followers to form an army and go on a rampage, he was predicting what came true. His message would cause strife, even within families. He makes another prediction about father and son (the old and the new) in conflict over Him... Not much of an astounding prediction though, religion has a consistent track record of bloodshed.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Then why the lack of jokes at the yo-yos expense?

What is sad is that a lot of people in this thread don't see him as a yo-yo, but a "holy crusader against the evil scourge of Christianity."

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Paul wasn't exactly the model of mental stability... He's killing Christians one day and has a mental breakdown and sees Jesus the next. Call me Doubting Thomas but Jesus would have to appear before me to explain that one.

Ah, but if he did, then other people like you would question your mental stability.

[Berzerker]

Well, I'd have to slap myself in the face a couple times after getting up off the floor, but my beliefs dont preclude the possibility.

[Berzerker]

What is sad is that a lot of people in this thread don't see him as a yo-yo, but a "holy crusader against the evil scourge of Christianity."

I'm not too impressed by atheists' certainty, but I like people who challenge authority. These people want others to accept their religion, back it up. I believe Jesus existed because my study of religion shows some personage or event (often astronomical) is usually the catalyst. It would be quite rare for a religion to start up without a founder, even if it was altered later on. Paul did the altering, but Jesus had his say and we have that... I think...

[Sava]

Re: Did Jesus exist? Court to decide

Originally posted by dejon
Did Jesus exist? Court to decide

oh for ****ing god (as my dad would say)

wtf is next? are we going to have a court decide if zeus exists?

what about every other damn mythical figure


WHEN WILL THE COURTS DECIDE IF THERE IS NO PINK UNICORN LIVING BEHIND THE MOON

NOBODY CAN PROVE THERE ISN"T ONE

hopefully the judge will throw this bull**** out of the court

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by dejon


Many people have died or suffered in the name of all religions. Humanity should hang our collective heads in shame for this.

Hopefully one day we'll move past all this.

But for the meantime - I wish the atheist the best of luck - he couldn't have a worse battleground.

Has aynone ever been unequivocally killed for the sake of the various large eastern religions? I find it hard to imagine that much violence has been committed against others in the name of the eastern religions but I guess I'm not well informed about them beyond knowing their idea of a violent protest is self immolation.

[Robert]

What's supposed to be the first gospel (Mark) has been written about 72AD in the opinion of the liberal theologians. The orthodox theologians date it several years earlier. That's only 40 years after Jesus should have died / left the earth.

Majority (if not all) of the theologians claim that the gospels are just based on common stories and testominies from earlier days. The letters of Paul (who refers to Jesus as well) are dated about 50AD. Most theologians believe this as well. Most theologians believe that an important part of the letters of Paul are authentical and written by Paul himself.

Thus around 40-50AD people have believed in Jesus for sure! Not only in Jerusalem and Israel, but in Rome and little-asia as well. A believe that has spread that quickly to all corners of the roman empire can't be based on somebody who didn't exist.

I'm studying theology (on a secular university in Holland, the Universiteit of Utrecht) and have been lectured by prof Geert van Oyen, a liberal theologian, who denies the ressurection etc. Just saying this so you guys can't look it up.

Oh, not to mention that even the Jesus Seminar believed that Jesus had existed, ultra-liberal christians.
Believing that Jesus never existed is really for those who have no clue. There's much more evidence for the existance of Jesus then for most people from that period, not to mention the millenia before 1AD.

[Capt Dizle]

I think that people who knock religion and claim it is the cause of violence are only using half their brain.

Violence is caused by people. Sometimes in the name of religion, nationalism, racism, any ideology. Any belief system can be used to manipulate for good or bad.

If you eliminate religion or for that matter, all the other sorts of ideology that we know of, guess what. Something else will spring up and there will be those willing to pervert it to their own ends.

Those among us who naively think that humankind is evolving into a mature and peaceful future are just about as blind as those fought in the crusades for the glory of God.

One notable failure of education is that it does not impart wisdom. Each newly graduated generation arrogantly believes that it has all the answers and then goes on to commit the same mistakes.

And that is the way it will always be because that is the nature of man.

[Sava]

that still doesn't mean that believing in myths and superstition as fact is a good thing

[Robert]

Originally posted by Sava
that still doesn't mean that believing in myths and superstition as fact is a good thing

Research proved overhere in Holland that people who follow a religion live longer.
Not to mention that the dutch who believe in God or Allah give more to charities. (in fact the non-believers hardly give any money at all, around € 30 per person per year, avg)
Being part of a community, like a church or a mosque, is good for societies and individuals as well. (fortunately there are sport clubs etc. for those who don't believe)

Not to mention that most people have been killed in name of men, and not in name of God. (first and 2nd world war, communism, dictators like Sadam hussein, Kim yon Il, etc. etc.)
And most of the 'religious wars' have a political or social reason and just *use* the religious differences for war. (North Ireland, Indonesia)

Of course awefull things have been done in the name of God (crusades, inquisition) and that's not something to be proud about. We, christians, are too blame for a lot of things. Though it's really pathatic if atheists / agnosts claim that religion / christianity has caused mostly bad things. It really hasn't, and for sure not compared to atheism/agnostism.

But you can believe in your myths of course!

[Sava]

Hey, I don't care what people believe.

If you want to believe in a big invisible man, be my guest.

Just keep it to yourself and don't try to hijack the government or public school system.

Then me and religionistas won't have a problem.

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by Sava
that still doesn't mean that believing in myths and superstition as fact is a good thing

Well, prove God is a myth. Any reasonable interpretation of most religious teachings, put to use and free of manipulation yields good things.

I simply don't agree with your premise.

I say that not believing in God has yet to be proven a good thing. Where is the evidence of that?

And I don't want to yield to the myth that Eastern religions haven't been violent when corrupted. Japanese Budhist monks for example.

[Capt Dizle]

And I think that the Hindu religion has a whole caste, a warrior caste. So, there, violence is integrated into the religion.

The point I trying to make is that religion is not violent but people are and I don't see any reason to think that any religion won't be corrupted by the people in it, nor do I see any reason that the absence of religion has, or could rid people of corruption.

[alva]

Long, very long ( not really for those who don't have broadband)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3593866248238036452&q=a+hepful+hand