Did Jesus exist? Court to decide

[Asher]

Communists are shameful by default.

[Last Conformist]

Especially che.

And yeah, I'd like to see proof that Jesus didn't exist.

[Capt Dizle]

Come on now. Che has no shame.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Of course Jesus existed. However, the amusing thing that could come from this case would be the public testimony, by experts, about how little of the New Testament is likely to have any basis in fact. The whole Christmas story, for example, is believed by almost all theologians to be a complete fabrication.

[Seeker]

I wonder if they will dredge up the most relevant documents, Josephus and Tacitus, and take a poll of the experts to see if they are considered interpolations/forgeries....

NOTE: these are important sources because they are the ONLY non-Christian sources that (may) refer to jesus from anything like close to the period. Otherwise it's kinda odd that there are no records in the senate, imperial archive, pilate's reports sent back to rome (which in included executed rebel leaders), Jewish writers like Philo or Josephus focussing on the period in their own country and to whom a Messiah candidate would've been important, etc etc.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Capt Dizle
Ever wonder why so many fear and hate Jesus?

All the time. Why do people have such hatred for a guy who came here to tell everyone to love their neighbor? Are athiests really that fricken pissed off by love, peace, compassion, charity and tolerance? I'll never understand.

[Seeker]

"Think not that I am come to bring peace. I bring not peace, but a sword"

"The Lord is a man of war"

"His vestment was red and dripping with blood....He was dripping in blood...His horse rode in blood up to it's flanks..He bore a sword" (paraphrased from John)

Oh...I dunno...

[FrostyBoy]

You all can easily believe that Caesar was real, but why can't you believe Jesus was real? Oh, is it because if you believe in Jesus, you will accidently believe in God to?

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Sn00py
You all can easily believe that Caesar was real, but why can't you believe Jesus was real? Oh, is it because if you believe in Jesus, you will accidently believe in God to?

There are countless disinterested historical documents that confirm Caesar's existence. Not so Jesus.

The better comparison is to Homer. And, as with Homer, the ultimate question is, does it matter? For liberal Christians, I suspect the answer is "no," since what's important is Christ's message, and we've got that (just like we have the Iliad and Odyssey, regardless of whether Homer existed). But for conservative Christians, the bodily resurrection is all-important, which means a historical Jesus is necessary.

[Capt Dizle]

Just what exactly is a liberal Christian?

[Bill3000]

A Christian who happens to be a tree-hugging hippie?

[OzzyKP]

I think Rufus is stretching the term a bit. Not believing in the resurrection or even in the existance of Jesus doesn't make one a liberal Christian, it makes one a liberal atheist who concedes Jesus had a few groovy ideas.

There are many good Christians out there who don't believe every word printed in the Bible is literal truth (ya know, like the Catholic Church), but if you don't believe in Jesus himself, then you're not a Christian. Sorry.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Capt Dizle
Just what exactly is a liberal Christian?

I'm using it to mean a Christian who focuses on Christ's teachings, rather than Christ's own supposed divinity. Liberal Christians are inclined to see truth in the Bible, but not fact; they are inclined to take much of what the Bible says as metaphoric, including accounts of Christ's miracles and even of the resurrection. They do believe in Christ's divinity, mind you; they just don't think that's teh important part of the religion. They are, I suppose, a hair's breadth away from being Unitarians; the ones I know tend to be Episcopalians, United Church of Christ members, and occasionally Lutherans and Catholics.

[Seeker]

There are hundreds of documents from the time, from other countries , monuments, etc etc etc reams of evidence for Caesar.

For Jesus Christ, we have two possible interpolations, which consist of three sentences, from two writers.

The Gospels? Way way after jesus.

For actual physical documentation of the period when he lived, of a man reputed to be the son of god and to have had a huge number of followers, at least temporariliy (remember Palm Sunday? the Sermon on the Mount?), we have virtually nothing from the period, and NOTHING that is not suspect.

There are obscure peasants from 16th century France whose lives are documented in far better detail, even just birth, profession, marriage, death.

Comparing Caesar and Christ is worse than comparing apples and
oranges. Caesar was famous throughout the roman world and adjacent lands. His ancestors, birth, childhood, deeds, and death are extensively written. There are physical artifacts of his you can go and see at a museum and touch with your hands. You can go to his house in the Forum if you want and look at the room were his desk once rested and he wrote the Commentaries, a book directly attributed to him (book 1 anyway) which almost all scholars believe he wrote himself (not to mention accounts, letters, legal documents, senate records etc.

For Christ, besides Josephus and Tacitus, we have: The Gospels, written hundreds of years after the fact, conflicting in points major and minor, conflicting in style, containing numerous interpolations, containing stylistic elements out of contemporary greek drama, by multiple unknown authors with different agendas.

Other than that: No records of Joseph or Mary in roman Nazareth. No birth records. No Jewish or Roman legal religious or tax documents of anykind. No records by jews of the period of a messiah claimant like jesus. No physical artifacts of any kind, no house, no sandal, no cross, no body, no verified tomb, no grafitti from 23-90AD saying 'Jesus is Lord' scratched into the walls of some pre-Essene hermits cave, nada, zip, zilch.

Some call it the 'Incredible Power of Faith'. I call it 'marketing'.

[Spec]

Originally posted by Capt Dizle
Ever wonder why so many fear and hate Jesus?

Tired of all the Bullshlt...I dont hate jesus, I just dont think that a magician/illusionist deserves so much attention.