Senate Rejects Extension of Patriot Act!

[Ramo]

It's both. I think one of the strongest arguments for civil liberties is that they help to keep the authorities focused on real threats.

In this particular example, the concerns wrt gov't resources are greater than the threat this poses to this guy's freedom, but one could easily imagine a situation where that's reversed. The aggregate effects of both factors are pretty damn significant though.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

It's worth remembering that the chief failure of 9/11 was not a failure to gather intelligence, it was a failure to share intelligence. If the FBI, the CIA, the INS and the State Dept had all actually been talking to each other rather than jealously guarding their own tiny bits of turf, we probably could have prevented the whole thing. The fix for that is in place and does not require the Patriot Act.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



Oh, its a resource issue. I thought you were implying it was a threat to liberty

Im not enthused about the policy, from the civil liberty viewpoint as well as the resource one, Im just questioning how big the concern is. And your post reminded me of my own past, so i thought id share it. give a little historical perspective, ya know?

Part of 'civil liberties' is the government not being allowed to randomly ask where I am and why i'm reading that book over there. It's not that it hurts me physically, but they shouldn't be *able* to do so. Being able to ask means they can object - whether or not they do, but the only reason to ask is to have the ability to say 'no' if the answer is not what the agent wants to hear.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by The diplomat
Yes, but car accidents are ... accidents. Nobody is deliberately causing these deaths. In the case of terrorism, we have a group of people who are deliberately trying to kill us.

Certainly, the mechanisms are different. The end results are the same, however. The natural lifespan of a group of people are cut short. Fudamentally, there is very little difference between a car running you over and a car bomb exploding next to you. You'll still end up dead.

The thing about 9-11 is it injured the pride of a country. After 1812, no attacks against the USA had ever occured on continential US. The furthest the IJN got to is Hawaii.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Certainly, the mechanisms are different. The end results are the same, however. The natural lifespan of a group of people are cut short. Fudamentally, there is very little difference between a car running you over and a car bomb exploding next to you. You'll still end up dead.

The thing about 9-11 is it injured the pride of a country. After 1812, no attacks against the USA had ever occured on continential US. The furthest the IJN got to is Hawaii.

This is a gross misconception. The pride of the country gets damaged by things like the handling of the katrina aftermath or the intelligence failures before the Iraq war or the abu prisoner abuse scandals but certainly not the terrorist attacks. In fact, the terrorist attacks somehow catalyzed a groundswell of pride in the USA. However, I'm sure things would have been perceived quite differently if 9-11 had been any sort of conventional attack.

[Kuciwalker]

Please spare us your insight into the American psyche, UR.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by The diplomat
So, if you oppose the Patriot Act, how do you propose we find terrorist hiding in this country?

You numb nuts. Name a single terrorist who's ever been brought to justice under the Patriot Act. You can't because there has never been any terrorists who have. Instead we have a long list of American citizens who've gotten their phone calls recorded, their credit records looked at, their library records examined and a bunch of other stuff for little other reason then opposition to Bush political policies.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Ugh. Here we go...

Deal reached to extend Patriot Act
Agreement would reauthorize law for 6 months to negotiate safeguards

BREAKING NEWS
The Associated Press
Updated: 9:30 p.m. ET Dec. 21, 2005


WASHINGTON - The Senate neared passage of a six-month extension of the USA Patriot Act Wednesday night, hoping to avoid the expiration of law enforcement powers deemed vital to the war on terror.

It is unclear when the House would act on the bill.

The agreement capped several days of backroom negotiation conducted against the backdrop of presidential attacks on critics of the legislation. The Patriot Act provisions will expire on Dec. 31 if the House and Senate do not act.

The extension gives critics — who successfully filibustered a House-Senate compromise that would have made most of the law permanent — more time to seek civil liberty safeguards in the law. Democrats and their allies had originally asked for a three-month extension, and the Senate’s Republican majority had offered a one-year extension. The final deal split the difference.

“For a lot of reasons, it made the most sense, given that there are significant differences that remain,” said GOP Sen. John Sununu of New Hampshire, one of a small group of Republicans who joined with Senate Democrats to filibuster a House-Senate compromise.

“I think this is a reasonable conclusion,” said Sen. Patrick Leahy of Vermont, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee.

© 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

© 2005 MSNBC.com

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10562008/

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
After 1812, no attacks against the USA had ever occured on continential US. The furthest the IJN got to is Hawaii.

Poor Pancho

[Dinner]

Indeed Pancho Villa invaded a portion of the southwest when the US started supporting the Mexican Government against Pancho's revolution. This lead the US Army to end up chasing him deep into Mexico.