Ageism, I Love It

[Jon Miller]

I really don't think youth should vote below 16 or so

as I Think they would be too easily manipulated by their parents.. (Although right now I have concerns about MTV and th elike...)

JM

[Flip McWho]

Thats why i'd like to start the political education courses from age 13. Start teaching them the various ideologies surrounding politics and how the system works etc. Their parents will still feed them their own political beliefs but the education will at least show them there are differing opinions out there.

By starting it at 13, when they reach the age of 15 (and thus able to vote in my system) they have some political knowledge that they wouldn't be voting entirely blind so to speak. Hopefully it'll also raise the concern with politics in the young as well.

But essentially, without a political course at school then lowering the voting age would just be a waste of time.

[OzzyKP]

Yea, I definitely think a concurrent course in politics would be essential.

[chequita guevara]

I'm ambivalent but generally supportive of Ozzy's position--my position on child leash and muzzle laws not withstanding . On the one hand, I think that young people ought to be able to vote on things that affect them (like Congress cutting the Pell Grant, etc.). On the other hand, it's also true that people have been infantilized to a much later age, and that many people who are legally adults still act like children into their early 20s.

[OzzyKP]

Exactly Che. This (and the rest of the things I advocate) is an attempt to reverse that infantalization.

[chequita guevara]

Given that people can vote at 18 and act like children into their mid-20s, I'm not sure I follow you.

[GePap]

Originally posted by OzzyKP


Then what do you feel it should be based on?

Your ability to perform your duties as a citizen of the state- your ability to do jury duty, pay taxes, and be drafted into the military. Someone who does not share the responsibilities of citizenship can;t be expected to demand the rights of it.

Since it is illegal to put kids into harms way, they do not get the right to vote.

[Flip McWho]

Kids under 18 can pay taxes. I've been paying taxes since 15 myself.

Theres no reason that under 18s can't be given jury duty, introduce a political/legal course into high schools. Failing that the jurors have to be passes by the two sides, so they'll veto out any kids I daresay.

As far as military goes, its really a moot point considering we no longer have conscription.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
Kids under 18 can pay taxes. I've been paying taxes since 15 myself.

Theres no reason that under 18s can't be given jury duty, introduce a political/legal course into high schools. Failing that the jurors have to be passes by the two sides, so they'll veto out any kids I daresay.

As far as military goes, its really a moot point considering we no longer have conscription.

That the state might, for its own reasons, not carry out a policy of conscription does not change the simple fact that a juvinille does not have the same responsibility as an adult, and hence, not entitled to the save level of rights either. Just as an immigrant, no matter how old, even if they pay taxes, even if they serve in the military, as they can, does not share fully in the responsibilites of citizenship, and thus is denied the vote.

That seems a very simple notion, no?

[self biased]

has anyone here read heinelin's starship troopers?

[Flip McWho]

Ok, so lower the entrance to military age to 15 and you'll run out of things to oppose? Besides I don't see how that matters. The only difference between me and a 16 yr old is that I could if I wanted join the military. Thats not much of a difference really. But the military now is just a profession. It is not really a duty of citizenship. Historically? Yes. Now? No.

And as far as immigrants goes, its only because they're from another country. They don't have citizenship to the country. A child however does.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
Ok, so lower the entrance to military age to 15 and you'll run out of things to oppose? Besides I don't see how that matters. The only difference between me and a 16 yr old is that I could if I wanted join the military. Thats not much of a difference really. But the military now is just a profession. It is not really a duty of citizenship. Historically? Yes. Now? No.

Its illegal under international law for anyone under 18 to be in the military. So much for that.

And as far as immigrants goes, its only because they're from another country. They don't have citizenship to the country. A child however does.

Both categories get their right to vote, in time.

[Flip McWho]

Fine, the international community is disciminating against under 18 yr olds.

It also doesn't counter the point that the military is just another profession now. Its ties to citizenship are essentially dead. Certain jobs you have to study to the end of a however long degree, some jobs expect experience, that doesn't mean they're disciminating against the people who don't have that degree or that experience. Just like the military, the military are not at fault if they're complying with international law considering they are just a profession.

However I don't really care. This is Ozzy's horse to flog. I don't even know what injustice that under 18s are suffering because of the whole not being allowed to vote thing.

[Flip McWho]

Plus the analogy between an immigrant and a child is flawed. An immigrant wasn't born here whilst the child was. The child is a citizen of the state from the moment they are born, whereas the immigrant is a citizen of the state the moment he chooses to become so (assuming all the credentials are meet). The right to vote does not mean citizenship.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
Plus the analogy between an immigrant and a child is flawed. An immigrant wasn't born here whilst the child was. The child is a citizen of the state from the moment they are born, whereas the immigrant is a citizen of the state the moment he chooses to become so (assuming all the credentials are meet). The right to vote does not mean citizenship.

Why should a child be granted immidiate citizenship simply for being born somewhere? Is that in any way fair, or non-discriminatory?