Chavez wins big in Venezuela!

[notyoueither]

I'm not sure why people are so fussed about Chavez.

He's a not so great ruler of a less than well ruled country. Not a huge diff from others in the region, except he gets up on his hind legs and bites at the gringos.

I had a look at what AI had to say about the country. Some heads are being knocked, by both sides, and the new sherrif in town is not being fair. What's new?

[Tassadar500]

That corruption scale is a joke. It states that the UAE essentially has the same rating as Israel.

[notyoueither]

It's impossible that one, small kingdom in the ME is not overly corrupt?

It's actually a fairly good marker of another aspect of states, AFAIK.

They don't play favourites. The current PM and GoC are pretty business friendly, and they get their knocks from that organization about problems with how the government works in secrecy.

[techumseh]

Originally posted by Oerdin
No, a statement of fact.

Well, piss off yourself. You asked for a recent example of the US engineering coups, death squads, etc. and I gave you one. Put up or shut up.

[Arrian]

You must be joking. You're actually asserting that the U.S.'s recent involvement in Haiti has been in the vein of overthrowing governments and forming death squads?

Dude, no wonder nobody takes you seriously.

-Arrian

[KrazyHorse]

Intervention in Haiti:
Bombing Serbia:
Invading Afghanistan:
Invading Iraq:
Funding terrorist groups in the 80s:
Supporting the attempted coup in Venezuela:

[Arrian]

Based upon a quick review of artiles online re: the latest fall of Aristide and aftermath, there appear to be three versions:

1) Aristide had become a thuggish dictator-type, and brought about his own fall. The UN peacekeeper force is there to try to restore order and get the elections done.

I'm not really buying that hook, line & sinker.

2) Aristide, while a long way from perfect, faced serious opposition from (other) thugs within the country, such as the remnants of the Army and various members of the "elite" of the country. This destabilized the country and ultimately resulted in his ouster. The U.S. decided it wasn't up for protection/restoring him AGAIN, so we got him out of there. Realpolitik - Aristide couldn't hold on without our military help, and we didn't want to keep helping over and over, thus let's get him gone and hold new elections and see if somebody who can keep order gets elected.

This I'll buy for a dollar.

3) Aristide was a righteous crusader for the poor people of Haiti and was brought down by a nefarious alliance of Haitian elites (rich people), military thugs, and clandestine US support. The US kidnapped him and removed him and will now make sure he's replaced with someone who will do as we please. France and Canada are somehow on board with this.

Strikes me as a conspiracy theory. I is unclear to me what possible business interests we could even have in Haiti at this point. Sending marines in over and over is not cheap, either, so why deliberately destabilize the country? I just don't see it.

-Arrian

[KrazyHorse]

Aristide had already lost the damn civil war. Rebels had taken over most of the country.

UN force brokered a ceasefire which had Aristide leaving. Aristide's head was on a pike if the UN didn't step in.

This is certainly the sequence of events I remember. Shells were hitting Port-au-Prince for days before the UN intervened.

I don't know how much of a dictator he was, but he sure as hell was a ****ty leader if he couldn't hold on after his chestnuts had already been pulled out of the fire once before.

[techumseh]

Originally posted by Arrian
You must be joking. You're actually asserting that the U.S.'s recent involvement in Haiti has been in the vein of overthrowing governments and forming death squads?

Dude, no wonder nobody takes you seriously.

-Arrian

Aristide himself claims he was forced out by the US. There is evidence that former Duvalier thugs, including members of death squads participated in organized violence to overthrow his elected government. US and French involvement is clear and well documented. And, yes, Canada too.

Is there some reason why these assertions are so surprising to you that you think they must be a joke?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by techumseh


Aristide himself claims he was forced out by the US.

No ****.

[KrazyHorse]

tecumseh, Aristide had lost by the time the first UN (or other foreign) troops landed.

Has it never struck you that the West was getting tired of saving Aristide's ass from his own incompetence?

The outcome was clear. Aristide was gone. The only question was whether we would let the rebels (a pretty nasty lot) just grab power and do whatever they wanted, or whether we'd put boots on the ground and impose democracy in Haiti (yet again). Which is what we did.

[Arrian]

There is evidence that former Duvalier thugs, including members of death squads participated in organized violence to overthrow his elected government. US and French involvement is clear and well documented.

Where is this evidence and documentation?

-Arrian

[techumseh]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Aristide had already lost the damn civil war. Rebels had taken over most of the country.

UN force brokered a ceasefire which had Aristide leaving. Aristide's head was on a pike if the UN didn't step in.

This is certainly the sequence of events I remember. Shells were hitting Port-au-Prince for days before the UN intervened.

I don't know how much of a dictator he was, but he sure as hell was a ****ty leader if he couldn't hold on after his chestnuts had already been pulled out of the fire once before.

Easy to say from here. Aristide had the support of the Clinton admin. Bush wanted him out. Having a view to the history of intervention in the region, holding onto power in a country like Haiti when the US government wants you gone is a very dicey proposition indeed.

[techumseh]

Originally posted by Arrian


Where is this evidence and documentation?

-Arrian

Here's a superb article by a professor of the Harvard medical school: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v26/n08/farm01_.html

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by techumseh


Easy to say from here. Aristide had the support of the Clinton admin. Bush wanted him out. Having a view to the history of intervention in the region, holding onto power in a country like Haiti when the US government wants you gone is a very dicey proposition indeed.