The Republican Pushback

[Drake Tungsten]

Did you think quoting McCain's possible smear makes the smear campaign by the chickenhawks more palatable?

I find the "chickenhawk" accusations in general to be pointless and stupid, so I usually don't bother with them. However, I simply couldn't pass up the opportunity to counter your preemptive whining about "smears" by "chickenhawks" with a persuasive rebuttal of folks like Murtha who want to cut and run from Iraq by a man who no one in their right mind could label a "chickenhawk".

Not that being labelled a "chickenhawk" makes a person's ideas and comments any less valid. It doesn't, which is why the whole "chickenhawk" meme is idiotic...

[Berzerker]

Drake - Before responding, I just watched a repeat of Hardball with McCain and he was asked about the title of that op-ed and he said that was the NY Post and McCain condemned the title in strong terms (for a senator).

I find the "chickenhawk" accusations in general to be pointless and stupid, so I usually don't bother with them.

You dont value the opinions of veterans over people who avoided war on military tactics?

However, I simply couldn't pass up the opportunity to counter your preemptive whining about "smears" by "chickenhawks" with a persuasive rebuttal of folks like Murtha who want to cut and run from Iraq by a man who no one in their right mind could label a "chickenhawk".

Pre-emptive whining about smears? They've been smearing people from before they even got to the WH (and McCain was one of their victims). And they're already smearing Murtha et al, look at the title of the op-ed you just quoted and the CNN link from Ted.

Not that being labelled a "chickenhawk" makes a person's ideas and comments any less valid. It doesn't, which is why the whole "chickenhawk" meme is idiotic...

A chickenhawk tells others to go and fight while they sit home getting deferments, the veteran goes and fights. And you think the chickenhawk's views are just as valid as the veteran?

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Did you think quoting McCain's possible smear makes the smear campaign by the chickenhawks more palatable?

I find the "chickenhawk" accusations in general to be pointless and stupid, so I usually don't bother with them. However, I simply couldn't pass up the opportunity to counter your preemptive whining about "smears" by "chickenhawks" with a persuasive rebuttal of folks like Murtha who want to cut and run from Iraq by a man who no one in their right mind could label a "chickenhawk".

Not that being labelled a "chickenhawk" makes a person's ideas and comments any less valid. It doesn't, which is why the whole "chickenhawk" meme is idiotic...

Or maybe you protest the label a little too much...

[Drake Tungsten]

You dont value the opinions of veterans over people who avoided war on military tactics?

No. I judge people's opinions on their own merits, not on the basis of their personal history. Veterans aren't necessarily military geniuses just because they served, just as non-veterans aren't necessarily ignorant of military matters just because they didn't serve.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
I judge people's opinions on their own merits, not on the basis of their personal history.

Sure you do...

[Berzerker]

No. I judge people's opinions on their own merits, not on the basis of their personal history. Veterans aren't necessarily military geniuses just because they served, just as non-veterans aren't necessarily ignorant of military matters just because they didn't serve.

So you find merit in smearing veterans when they disagree with you? If not, why are you defending the merchants of smear who lied us into this war? This is not about what we should do now in Iraq, this is about the political tactics used here.

[Drake Tungsten]

So you find merit in smearing veterans when they disagree with you? If not, why are you defending the merchants of smear who lied us into this war?

Well, given that I don't believe anyone lied us into this war, I don't see why I would be attacking them like you are. And I don't really see how anyone is smearing Murtha so far; calling an immediate withdrawal a "cut-and-run" and a "surrender" is certainly defensible, if a little over the top. Then again, what isn't over the top about politics these days? The whole damn country seems to have lost any sense of perspective it once had, which is both bemusing and depressing for someone viewing things from the outside.

[Heerscher]

I simply can't believe the viciousness of this political struggle between the Republicans and Democrats. Character assasination and mud slinging seems to be the way to go these days. Civil debate on political issues isn't possible anymore. I just can't help getting the idea that this mentality (displayed by BOTH parties) is corrupting your whole constitutional system.

[Drake Tungsten]

Good lord, I'm agreeing with a DL...

[Berzerker]

Drake

Well, given that I don't believe anyone lied us into this war, I don't see why I would be attacking them like you are.

They cant stop lying Drake! They lie damn near every day. Bush did it again when he said Congress had the same intel the WH had. Thats a lie! They didn't accumulate intel and look at it objectively, they took what helped their case and disgarded what hurt their case and handed Congress the distortion of reality. They smeared critics, veterans, grieving mothers, anyone who got in the way. You're wrong on this one, Drake.

And I don't really see how anyone is smearing Murtha so far; calling an immediate withdrawal a "cut-and-run" and a "surrender" is certainly defensible, if a little over the top.

You just posted an op ed titled "aiding and abetting" and I saw the paper, it was splashed across the whole upper page as if we just won WW II. And yes, accusing someone of wanting to surrender because they dont want our troops in Iraq as long as you is a smear.

Then again, what isn't over the top about politics these days? The whole damn country seems to have lost any sense of perspective it once had, which is both bemusing and depressing for someone viewing things from the outside.

And "the leadership" is just a victim of this atmosphere, not the primary polluter?

[Drake Tungsten]

They cant stop lying Drake!

Bush did it again when he said Congress had the same intel the WH had. Thats a lie!

No, it's not. Members of Congress had access to the full spectrum of the intelligence gathered, just like the President. The only difference is that members of Congress got the intelligence in the form of the National Intelligence Estimate, instead of the President's Daily Brief. The Robb-Silberman Commission (the one McCain served on) said that there was no significant difference between the information contained in the NIE given to Congress and the PDB given to the President.

It was not that the intelligence was markedly different. Rather, it was that the PDBs and SEIBs, with their attention-grabbing headlines and drumbeat of repetition, left an impression of many corroborating reports where in fact there were very few sources. And in other instances, intelligence suggesting the existence of weapons programs was conveyed to senior policymakers, but later information casting doubt upon the validity of that intelligence was not." (Charles S. Robb And Laurence H. Silberman, The Commission On The Intelligence Capabilities Of The United States Regarding Weapons Of Mass Destruction, 3/31/05, Pg. 14)

The main difference between the NIE and the PDB wasn't in substance, but in tone. According to the same commission, the President's Daily Brief was more alarmist and less nuanced than the NIE given to Congress.

"As problematic as the October 2002 NIE was, it was not the Community's biggest analytic failure on Iraq. Even more misleading was the river of intelligence that flowed from the CIA to top policymakers over long periods of time--in the President's Daily Brief (PDB) and in its more widely distributed companion, the Senior Executive Intelligence Brief (SEIB). These daily reports were, if anything, more alarmist and less nuanced than the NIE." (Charles S. Robb And Laurence H. Silberman, The Commission On The Intelligence Capabilities Of The United States Regarding Weapons Of Mass Destruction, 3/31/05, Pg. 14)

So, if anything, the President has more of an excuse for being tricked by faulty intelligence than the members of Congress do.

Why do we even have these commissions if people like you just ignore their findings?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

You're hoping Cheney of all people will rescue you?

Rescue me? What do I have to do with any of this?

Berz - Sorry, but I'm with McCain on this one.

Here's a question for you. You're in the kitchen to do dishes, you've really got to go, so you decide to pee in the sink. Somehow, you manage to get your Cheney in the garbage disposal while it's running. How long do you keep your Cheney in the disposal so you can prove a point that you can outlast the blades?

Iraq is an incompetently executed FUBAR, and it will never become a stable, complacent, pro-western democracy. As long as we continue to take the heat, the Iraqi factions will spend their time maneuvering for power over each other to prepare for the inevitable day when we realize we're really not going to invade the middle of the Arab world and outlast every fundamentalist and nationalist Arab asswipe there.

[Ted Striker]

Defense official: Rumsfeld given Iraq withdrawal plan

Plan calls for troops to begin pulling out after December elections

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The top U.S. commander in Iraq has submitted a plan to the Pentagon for withdrawing troops in Iraq, according to a senior defense official.

Gen. George Casey submitted the plan to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. It includes numerous options and recommends that brigades -- usually made up of about 2,000 soldiers each -- begin pulling out of Iraq early next year.

The proposal comes as tension grows in both Washington and Baghdad following a call by a senior House Democrat to bring U.S. troops home and the deaths of scores of people by suicide bombers in two Iraqi cities.

House Republicans were looking for a showdown Friday after Rep. John Murtha, a Pennsylvania Democrat and well-respected Vietnam veteran, presented a resolution that would force the president to withdraw the nearly 160,000 U.S. troops in Iraq "at the earliest predictable date." (Watch Murtha urge legislators to sign off on pulling out troops -- 1:37)

Murtha on Thursday called the administration's management of the conflict "a flawed policy wrapped in illusion" that is "uniting the enemy against us."

"It's time to bring the troops home," he said.

Republicans were looking to lock horns with Democrats after Murtha's remarks.

Rather than distancing themselves from Friday's resolution, House majority leader Roy Blunt, R-Missouri, welcomed a debate and vote, forcing Democrats to stand alongside Murtha or go on record against the withdrawal. (Read about the House showdown)

Meanwhile, at least 90 people were killed in two suicide bombings in Iraq, according to hospital officials. The U.S. military put the casualties at 150, without giving a breakdown. (Full story)

The deadliest of the attacks took place in Khanaqin, a Shiite-Kurdish town about 60 miles (100 kilometers) northeast of Baquba. Two suicide bombers detonated bombs near or inside Shiite Muslim mosques, destroying both of the structures, Iraqi and U.S. authorities said.

Scores of people were killed.

The attacks came during midday prayer services, when the mosques were full of worshippers, many of them children, the Khanaqin mayor said.

Also Friday, two suicide car bombings in Baghdad killed at least six people near a hotel, police said. (Watch security camera video of suicide car bomb -- :30)

The hotel is near the Iraqi Interior Ministry compound, where about 170 detainees were found last weekend, some with signs of torture, according to Iraqi officials. There were no reports of damage to the compound, and the U.S. military said the hotel was the target of the attack.

Rumsfeld has yet to sign Casey's withdrawal plan but, the senior defense official said, implementation of the plan, if approved, would start after the December 15 Iraqi elections so as not to discourage voters from going to the polls.

The plan, which would withdraw a limited amount of troops during 2006, requires that a host of milestones be reached before troops are withdrawn.

Top Pentagon officials have repeatedly discussed some of those milestones: Iraqi troops must demonstrate that they can handle security without U.S. help; the country's political process must be strong; and reconstruction and economic conditions must show signs of stability.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/11/18/iraq.plan/index.html

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

So, if anything, the President has more of an excuse for being tricked by faulty intelligence than the members of Congress do.

Do you think these intel agencies operate in a vacuum, blind to the mindset and inclinations of those up the chain of command?

Nobody needs to exert political pressure - if you didn't view the world through the "Saddam is the incarnation of all evil" turd-colored glasses, you weren't part of the intel community for long.

Call it a cultural failing of the intel organizations if you want, but that's something that comes from the top down, no matter who is in office.

Whether Bush lied three years ago shouldn't be an issue at all. The real issue is the continual, on-going ****up and the insistence that everything is going just fine and no changes need to be made.

[GePap]

Have the president's poll numbers gone up? Has support for this bondoogle gone up? If not, we can call this "pushback" as monumental a failure as that of the Iraq policy.