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MSNBC: US Becoming Hostile to Science?

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  • #46
    Some conservatives recognize ID for the crap it is, and aren't afraid to say so. John Derbyshire of National Review frequently expounds on the absurdity of holding ID on the same level as evolution:

    The I.D. trial. The "Intelligent Design" trial — the Scopes Monkey trial of our time — rumbles on in Dover, Pa. Hanna Rosin sat through some testimony, and reported on Slate.com.

    It is hard to write anything about I.D. without noting the fundamental dishonesty of the I.D. project. (Rosin doesn't even try.) The object of the exercise, from the I.D.-ers point of view, is to get religion into public-school science classes. They know, however, that if they say this out loud, or do anything to give away the secret, their arguments will be tossed out of court on church-state grounds. So their presentations perforce resemble that "Fawlty Towers" sketch where Basil, having taken a party of Germans into his hotel, keeps telling his employees: "Whatever you do, don't mention the war!" Here, is it religious Creationism that the I.D. people have to avoid mentioning. This is really tricky for them, since religious Creationism is precisely the thing they want to promote.

    There is another dishonesty, too. The whole I.D. project depends on telling people, people who don't work in science, or understand the way science is done, that there is a raging "controversy" in biology, with Darwinism on one side and I.D. on the other. "Teach both sides of the controversy!" they plead. You are supposed to have the mental image of rooms full of biologists breaking furniture over each other's heads while screaming: "Irreducible complexity!" "Epitasis!" etc. at each other.

    That's preposterous. The furniture of the nation's biology faculties is in no danger. To be sure, you can come up with working biologists willing to give the time of day to I.D. The Discovery Institute has even produced a list of names in this context, though the list does not bear very close scrutiny. Similarly, you could probably come up with a fringe few astronomers — around half of one percent (which is about what the I.D.-ers claim for biologists sympathetic to their notions) willing to give the time of day to Steady State cosmology. It does not follow that there is a "controversy" in astronomy about Steady State vs. Big Bang. There isn't, and hasn't been for 40 years. Nor is there any controversy in biology about Darwinism. When the I.D. folk say there is, they are saying something untrue. Zero point five percent versus 99.5 percent is not a controversy. If you tell unscientific people that it is, you are practicing deception. Deception is what most I.D.-ers are practicing.

    As for Michael Behe's implication in testimony that he is the Georges Lemaître of modern biology, John Farrell deconstructs that very crisply here. The I.D. people just l-o-v-e the fact that a key figure in modern cosmology, who was right on a point about which Albert Einstein was wrong, was a Roman Catholic priest. What they are not so keen to have you know is that Lemaître kept his physics and his religion very strictly separate, declaring loud and often that his religious beliefs did not motivate his cosmology. Quote: "Hundreds of professional and amateur scientists actually believe the Bible pretends to teach science. This is a good deal like assuming there must be authentic religious dogma in the binomial theorem." If Behe were really a new Lemaître, he would be a wiser man, and a better scientist.

    Similarly with Isaac Newton, whose dabbling in scriptural interpretation also fills the I.D.-ers with glee. "Don't you know that Newton was a keen student of the Bible?" they say, as if they were the first ones to find this out. To which the obvious reply is: "Yes, he was. But he didn't put any of that into the Principia!"

    (Newton's religious beliefs were in any case so eccentric that I advise sensible Christians to keep them at arm's length. He believed, for example, that God had several sons, not just the one. He probably believed that he himself was one of those extra sons — a belief inspired by the fact that Newton was, according to the calendar of his time, born on Christmas Day...)

    Science is science, religion is religion, and it is no insult to either to keep the two firmly and clearly apart. Abbé Lemaître and Sir Isaac both understood that; many I.D.-ers don't.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Atahualpa
      The concept of god is stupid and from the middle ages. Not suprisingly god is called the lord.
      You realize, of course, how utterly false this is? You seem like a smart guy, don't make yourself look ignorant.
      Lime roots and treachery!
      "Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Cyclotron


        You realize, of course, how utterly false this is? You seem like a smart guy, don't make yourself look ignorant.
        I need a foot massage

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Cyclotron
          You realize, of course, how utterly false this is? You seem like a smart guy, don't make yourself look ignorant.
          Well, maybe my explanations weren't that helpful, but less I am ignorant than wrong. Though I am not.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Urban Ranger


            Yes, you asserted that.

            You brought up many of the same old arguments that Creationists use against evolution, all of them refuted numerous times over. For example, you claimed that gaps in the fossil record is a valid criticism of evolution.

            What I brought was arguments by Phd's in Molecular Biology, Chemistry, Genetics, Pathology etc. Most of whom assert that they ARE NOT Creationist or ID'ers. As I continue to say and you continue to avoid, there are people who question evolution, or more specifically, elements of evolution, without proposing an alternate theory.

            Now it makes sense that if someone wants to believe in Creationism, without any proof of that idea, they would pole holes in evolution. They would probably use some of the same arguments as the respected scientists I brought up earlier use. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE OTHERS BELIEVE IN CREATIONISM.

            I question Chrisitanity, so do Muslims. That doesn't mean I am a Muslim.

            I, due to my open minded research of qualified scientists, believe that Neo-Darwinistic Evolution: a) doesn't explain it all and b) has certain "problems".

            I believe that one day those problems issues will be explained within the general framework of evolution. I don't believe in ID or Creationism. My only points were that

            a) there was legitimate debate amongst qualified scientists as to the total accuracy and completeness of Neo-Darwinistic Evolution

            b) that competing scientific theories or questions should be heard in classrooms BUT religious or mystical theories (ID or Creationism) should not.

            Now I can't be any clearer. An PLEASE, if you are going to respond to this post respond to what I said, instead of calling me an ID'er or Creationist or implying I have an ulterior motive.


            You also quoted from Creationist press releases to support your own view.

            That's interesting behaviour for some person who proclaimed to be an evolutionist.


            No I quoted from a Reuters story on Yahoo about a court case in Georgia and a from a radio interview with Denton I believe from NPR. That statement shows your bias once again. Basically anyone who writes, discusses or quotes another source that brings up problems with evolution is displaying "interesting behaviour " I guess now you want to control what the press reports on this issue too.

            By the way I never claimed to be an evolutionist. I said in general evolution is probably correct. I said it was the best theory available but certainly not as concrete as other scientific theories. I said that there are many qualified scientists who have problems with the theory. I said to the extent that thier arguments remain scientific and on topic that they should be heard.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Atahualpa
              Well, maybe my explanations weren't that helpful, but less I am ignorant than wrong. Though I am not.
              Not helpful? Jesus. Calling the assertion that the notion of God is a phenomeon of Middle Age feudal society "not helpful" is a colossal understatement. I'm not even sure it could be unhelpful - it's so obviously and patently false that I seriously doubt the ability of that statement to inspire agreement in even the most dense of grade school students.

              It pains me to spell it out like this, but even Jesus Christ predates feudal society. He lived during the Roman goddamn Empire. Not to mention the fact that his brand of God-based religion is only the 3rd such faith, after Judaism and Zoroastrianism, which each predate the Middle Ages by many centuries. To say that people calling Jesus "Lord" is evidence of the belief in a God being a Middle Age concept is a swift and malicious kick to the balls of history. It's just below the belt.

              "Not helpful"
              Lime roots and treachery!
              "Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten

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              • #52
                I didn't mean middle ages literally... I thought I could use it as synonym for "backwardism"

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                • #53
                  The idea that the US is hostile to science is absurd. Do we not have the most technologically advanced nuclear missles and submarines? Do we not have the world's most sophisticated and capable fighters and bombers? Did we not put in place the global GPS system and then design precision bombs that could be guided by it and produced at a fraction of the cost of laser guided bombs. Wake up world! Right wing religiously conservative America is not only way ahead of you, we're the only ones really in the race!


                  BTW, all the above mentioned devices were intelligently designed and did not evolve from chimps!
                  "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

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                  • #54
                    I hate to say this, but there wouldn't be so much of a problem if many scientists refrained from simply dismissing ID without any real argument, or with a poor understanding of the Teleological Argument.

                    It's a better argument that people tend to think, even if it is not convincing in the end.

                    And the arguments against ID being a scientific theory, while correct in the end, tend to rely on verificationist or Popperian approaches to science, which aren't particularly compelling.
                    Only feebs vote.

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                    • #55
                      [Q=Dr Strangelove]The idea that the US is hostile to science is absurd. Do we not have the most technologically advanced nuclear missles and submarines? Do we not have the world's most sophisticated and capable fighters and bombers? Did we not put in place the global GPS system and then design precision bombs that could be guided by it and produced at a fraction of the cost of laser guided bombs. Wake up world! Right wing religiously conservative America is not only way ahead of you, we're the only ones really in the race![/Q]

                      Well, according to your description, I would at least say that the US is hostile to humanity

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Atahualpa
                        [Q=Dr Strangelove]The idea that the US is hostile to science is absurd. Do we not have the most technologically advanced nuclear missles and submarines? Do we not have the world's most sophisticated and capable fighters and bombers? Did we not put in place the global GPS system and then design precision bombs that could be guided by it and produced at a fraction of the cost of laser guided bombs. Wake up world! Right wing religiously conservative America is not only way ahead of you, we're the only ones really in the race![/Q]

                        Well, according to your description, I would at least say that the US is hostile to humanity
                        You forget that those thingies mainly was invented by descendants of apes, but are now controlled by those designed by god.
                        With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

                        Steven Weinberg

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                        • #57
                          The US isn't hostile to science and remains the world's largest financier of new scientific research, however, there are large segments o the US population which are hostile to certain scientific ideas or research which contradict their personal religious views. Areas like evolutionary biology, stemcell research, and theroputic cloning seem to get these people's panties in a bunch.
                          Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Mr. Harley
                            I WORK with both creationists and ID's.

                            I feel sorry for you.
                            A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Oerdin
                              The US isn't hostile to science and remains the world's largest financier of new scientific research
                              The gap is rapidly closing. US is putting less into science lately and EU and China are putting a lot more.

                              The US had an incredible preeminence for first-rate research institutions for a very long time. That's no longer as clear as it once was, and is likely to get less so as time goes by.
                              12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                              Stadtluft Macht Frei
                              Killing it is the new killing it
                              Ultima Ratio Regum

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                              • #60
                                The gap is rapidly closing. US is putting less into science lately and EU and China are putting a lot more.

                                The US had an incredible preeminence for first-rate research institutions for a very long time. That's no longer as clear as it once was, and is likely to get less so as time goes by.
                                I hope you did not present that as proof of the OT.

                                Just like economics, just becasue other coutries and regions are finally taking their piece of the pie/waking up/taking responsibilty or whatever action you want to appy to whatever category does not mean America is slipping.

                                It is a good thing the EU is spending more, does not mean we have to be a certain percentage over them.
                                "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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