Why must intelligent design be stopped

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Lul Thyme
This thread shouldn't be about wheter ID is grounded in facts.
It's not.
The thread is about what is\should be done to counter their rise.
In a way I'm happy Im not in the U.S.
But in another way, I sorta fear it could spread and in any case we are very dependent on the U.S. so it still scares me.

I wonder if this whole thing if is a cause of a symptom of the decrease in science ppl in the U.S, or a mix of both.

Dont worry too much. I live in Virginia, a very conservative state, and they definitely teach evolution here - havent heard about ID being introduced. This is something that will happen in Kansas, a few parts of the deep south - at most. Its a big deal cause the fundies feel recognized that way - it doesnt change what kids in school spend their time on.

But then I suppose on both sides its less about education, or the future of science education than it is about scoring points in the culturekampf.

If folks were really concerned about science education, theyd be talking about the difficulty in attracting qualified science teachers at the Middle School and High School levels, not about some stupid stickers.

[Whaleboy]

please seperate the theodicy discussion from the ID discussion. There are many people who believe in G-D who also believe in evolution. There are many ways of approaching the problem of G-d and evil, none of which will be discussed intelligently here.

Tis true, indeed I believe this to be telling:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationists#Plea_to_reject_nonsense

Remember though that ID is not being tabled as a scientific theory, for its proponents know that true science pwns it. It relies on marketting, on soundbytes and branding... claims that the teaching of scientific fact discriminates against religion (which to me is more an admission but the idiots see it as "OMFG they're burning Christians again!").

As a political movement, it should be curtailed because of it's aims to ****** science and establish a populist theocratic agenda... as such ID is not merely externally disingenuous, it is so internally as well.

There are far stronger arguments for the existence of God that admit evolution; indeed admit no cosmological role for an actualised God (whereby it becomes falsifiable). Of course, those can also be easily knocked-down, but that's a different story .

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Maybe it would be easier to change peoples minds if one didnt start by considering them idiots. I really doubt that most people who agree with evolution have actually read Darwin, Gould, etc.much less studied biology in depth. Its a cultural thing, as it is for the fundies. If theyre right, its cause they lucked out and happened to be raised in the culture that is right on this. They can and should argue for their viewpoint, but not by calling their adversaries idiots.

One thing to note here is, people who accept evolution without understanding anything of the science behind it rarely post contorted or dishonest arguments to defend their views. Self-proclaimed champions of creationism do on a regular basis.

Creationist who shut up about what they do not understand are usually left in peace.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Az
This is my favorite part of the article:

For several decades the philosophical ground has been softened up by the relativism and political correctness of the secular left, which succeeded in undermining the very idea of objective reality and of calling a spade a spade—so now, in the resulting marsh, fantasies like intelligent design (or Scientology or feng shui or 9/11 as a CIA plot) take root and spread like weeds. Liberals pioneered squishy-minded indulgence of their key constituencies’ unfortunate new ideas, like reparations and criminalized hate speech; now it’s the right’s turn.

well, mostly. It's our own damn fault. WE need to wake up.

QFT


I thought about only quoting this part and then linking to the article.

This btw, was the feature that appeared that made me open the link in the first place...

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

QFT


I thought about only quoting this part and then linking to the article.

This btw, was the feature that appeared that made me open the link in the first place...

An RSS feed from Arts and Letters Daily? I took it up on your recommendation and I'm not sorry for it. They sometimes carry good articles

This one though, I disregarded as crap after skimming it.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

One thing to note here is, people who accept evolution without understanding anything of the science behind it rarely post contorted or dishonest arguments to defend their views. Self-proclaimed champions of creationism do on a regular basis.

Creationist who shut up about what they do not understand are usually left in peace.

My experience is that in the heat of politics people of all persuasions will post contorted or dishonest arguements.


I guess the difference is that I can accept that large numbers of Americans beleive in a "literal" interpretation of the bible, and I can feel their pain (so to speak) when they see it contradicted in the schools their taxes fund. We should still teach proper science in science courses, but the overall problem needs to be approached with sensitivity and tact, not with adolescent ranting (sorry Ozzy ) It seems that many of the folks posting such rants are not genuinely concerned with healing the US polity.

[Sava]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Maybe it would be easier to change peoples minds if one didnt start by considering them idiots. I really doubt that most people who agree with evolution have actually read Darwin, Gould, etc.much less studied biology in depth. Its a cultural thing, as it is for the fundies. If theyre right, its cause they lucked out and happened to be raised in the culture that is right on this. They can and should argue for their viewpoint, but not by calling their adversaries idiots.

there is no changing their minds...

these people don't listen to reason...

they are like the TERMINATOR

"It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!!!"




nothing will ever change their minds... no proof... nothing... it is pure ignorance

and absolutely we should come out and call ignorance by its name

and we should fight TO THE DEATH to prevent these IDIOTS from corrupting our educational system

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sava


there is no changing their minds...

these people don't listen to reason...

they are like the TERMINATOR

"It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or
remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!!!"




nothing will ever change their minds... no proof... nothing... it is pure ignorance

and absolutely we should come out and call ignorance by its name

and we should fight TO THE DEATH to prevent these IDIOTS from corrupting our educational system

res ipso loquitur

[Sava]

ipsa

[Sava]

that's clever LOTM... well not really.... but okay whatever


are you arguing otherwise?

do you think creationists can be reasoned with?

please, enlighten me...

what is your solution?

should we compromise and let ID be taught in schools just so we don't offend them?

[Last Conformist]

The ID people, I’m afraid, remind me of Holocaust deniers. They’re not evil

I don't agree that ID people aren't evil, BTW.

[Patroklos]

nothing will ever change their minds... no proof... nothing... it is pure ignorance

and absolutely we should come out and call ignorance by its name

and we should fight TO THE DEATH

Spoke like a true shock trooper

And you think the Christians are fundies?

[Whaleboy]

I think that fundamentalism is an issue here... there is a difference between people who will listen to reason and people for whom blind faith is the be all and end all... frankly the further these people are from politics the better it will be for all of us.

Pat, are you implying that Christian fundamentalism is a contradiction in terms?

[Jon Miller]

how does intelligent design compare at all to beleifs about heaven, angels, or the devil?

intelligent design is an attempt to explain science

heaven, angels, and the devil are all outside of the realm of current science, so beleifs (either positive or negative) are proper

to those who don't understand what science is

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

you have basically said that you can't be Christian (or religious, really) and be scientific

this is obviously false

JM