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Evolution and religion , a hundred years ago

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  • Evolution and religion , a hundred years ago

    I was reminded of the currently raging ( at least raging in America ( the rest of the world looks on America WRT creationism with mild amused comtempt )) debate over creationism versus evolution while reading the following passage from "The complete works of Swami Vivekanand" , and also highlighted the fundamental differences in how American and Indian society dealt with change .

    Creationists seem to reject the theory of evolution altogether , saying that only their Bible is supreme . There also seems to be an element of "I ain't got no monkey as me gramps !!!" in what they say ( man was created in the image of God , etc. ) .

    Contrast this with how Swami Vivekanand dealt with the TOE :


    To return to mythology. Behind all these stories we find one idea standing supreme — that man is a degeneration of what he was. Coming to the present times, modern research seems to repudiate this position absolutely. Evolutionists seem to contradict entirely this assertion. According to them, man is the evolution of the mollusc; and, therefore, what mythology states cannot be true. There is in India, however, a mythology which is able to reconcile both these positions. The Indian mythology has a theory of cycles, that all progression is in the form of waves. Every wave is attended by a fall, and that by a rise the next moment, that by a fall in the next, and again another rise. The motion is in cycles. Certainly it is true, even on the grounds of modern research, that man cannot be simply an evolution. Every evolution presupposes an involution. The modern scientific man will tell you that you can only get the amount of energy out of a machine which you have previously put into it. Something cannot be produced out of nothing. If a man is an evolution of the mollusc, then the perfect man — the Buddha-man, the Christ-man — was involved in the mollusc. If it is not so, whence come these gigantic personalities? Something cannot come out of nothing. Thus we are in the position of reconciling the scriptures with modern light. That energy which manifests itself slowly through various stages until it becomes the perfect man, cannot come out of nothing. It existed somewhere; and if the mollusc or the protoplasm is the first point to which you can trace it, that protoplasm, somehow or other, must have contained the energy.


    Instead of saying ( as the creationists do ) that man is supreme , therefore he could not have evolved from something "lower" , the Swami says that , as man is evolved from something "lower" , that something is also to be considered as much a work of God as man is . The positive attitude towards creation versus the negative one .

    I feel compelled to ask - why this difference ?

    Discuss .

  • #2
    Weak!

    Teach us how to become a guru and have a cult of teenage girl followers!

    Comment


    • #3
      My opinion is that the American brand of religious fundamentalism has a strong streak of claiming the superiority of its members over anything else in creation.

      If you look at the American religious fundamentalism, you'll notice that it basically boils down to a "I support Jesus, hence I'll go to heaven". Among these believers, there is nothing more than that. Sure, a ,virtuous life would be nice theoretically, but it's not essential. That kind of fundamentalism, which only focuses on the "Jesus is my saviour" part, is the easy way out.

      As a result, since their religion is reduced to the extreme to a single statement "Jesus is my personal Saviour", this strain of fundamentalism seriously hampers the development of an open mind and tolerance. A French deeply religious protestant friend of mine was amazed by the fact he never met people that were more intolerant than the American born-agains he worked with.

      There is no reason to believe that the intolerance and the feeling of superiority stops to humans who don't accept Jesus as their personal saviour. Just as it is intolerable to them to think that non-Jesusites can qualify to holy greatness, it is also intolerable to think that monkeys could possibly qualify for holy greatness.

      Note that I'm not speaking about the ordinary believers in the US. I'm talking about a strain of religion, which is heavily influential among fundies, but much less so among non-fundies, which is to reduce all religious thought to the statement "Jesus is my saviour".
      "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
      "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
      "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

      Comment


      • #4
        Teach us how to become a guru and have a cult of teenage girl followers!
        Welcome to the Church of NKOTB
        Monkey!!!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Spiffor
          My opinion is that the American brand of religious fundamentalism has a strong streak of claiming the superiority of its members over anything else in creation.

          If you look at the American religious fundamentalism, you'll notice that it basically boils down to a "I support Jesus, hence I'll go to heaven". Among these believers, there is nothing more than that. Sure, a ,virtuous life would be nice theoretically, but it's not essential. That kind of fundamentalism, which only focuses on the "Jesus is my saviour" part, is the easy way out.

          As a result, since their religion is reduced to the extreme to a single statement "Jesus is my personal Saviour", this strain of fundamentalism seriously hampers the development of an open mind and tolerance. A French deeply religious protestant friend of mine was amazed by the fact he never met people that were more intolerant than the American born-agains he worked with.

          There is no reason to believe that the intolerance and the feeling of superiority stops to humans who don't accept Jesus as their personal saviour. Just as it is intolerable to them to think that non-Jesusites can qualify to holy greatness, it is also intolerable to think that monkeys could possibly qualify for holy greatness.

          Note that I'm not speaking about the ordinary believers in the US. I'm talking about a strain of religion, which is heavily influential among fundies, but much less so among non-fundies, which is to reduce all religious thought to the statement "Jesus is my saviour".
          My question is : why did such an attitude develop in the first place ?

          Comment


          • #6
            Because it's the vulgar form of protestant theology. And because the US is where Europe threw away its worst religionists.
            "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
            "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
            "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

            Comment


            • #7
              American religious fundamentalism is just the more visible and successful part of christian fundamentalism. It's not that we wouldn't have these kind of thinking here, Heresson, anyone?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Spiffor
                Because it's the vulgar form of protestant theology. And because the US is where Europe threw away its worst religionists.
                Nah, it's because it doesn't sound stupid in the US when you say, God helped you or God has showed you or... Around here, people would be silently shaking heads and thinking "OMG, what a noob"

                I think it's because Europe has a higher amount of intellectuals in general.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Atahualpa
                  Heresson, anyone?
                  Heresson is fairly different from the American brand of fundamentalism. He seems to think there is more to religion that simply invoking the name of Jesus.

                  That is not to say that intolerance doesn't exist in Europe (it does, unfortunately), but it doesn't show itself the same way as in the US. In particular, the literal belief in the Bible, and the ridiculing of those who don't, is nearly inexistant in Europe.
                  "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                  "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                  "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think it's because Europe has a higher amount of intellectuals in general.


                    I just had an argument with a very smart coworker who though it would be christian to kill someone if the situation warrented it. I told him I don't think there is that caveat on that commandment, so it wouldn't be christian. He was all "so how do explain the Crusades?" I told him that Europeans are bad christians.

                    Being religious has nothing to do with being smart or intellectual. Beliefs are not knowledge.
                    Monkey!!!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Don't you think that this impression exists?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Japher
                        Being religious has nothing to do with being smart or intellectual.
                        I disagree. "Intellectual" in the meaning of religion doesn't mean knowledge or lack thereof. It indicates the willingness to think about your religion, to think about what you really believe in.

                        Most theologians are deeply religious, but they also have a very intellectual approach to religion. Because they think about it by themselves. On the other hand, those whose religion is just to claim "Jesus is my saviour" as loudly as possible have a very shallow religion.

                        And like any other kind of shallow belief, a shallow religious belief is easiest to break. This might be the reason why so many people feel the need to show their religious loyalty so much. Exactly the same way as a closeted gay will often display his manliness or even homophobia.
                        "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                        "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                        "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Don't you think that this impression exists?
                          I think the problem is that all our nutbags screen louder than yours, and our media loves it. Europeans just see why it is shown to them and take it for fact. American's aren't the only ones who love making sweeping generalizations.
                          Monkey!!!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Well, the only Europeans who deserved to be made fun of, in this matter, were the Serbs. And even then, the Serbs are much less so of a laughingstock: a Serbian education minister wanted to teach creation in science class, but she was so ridiculed for it she was forced to drop the project (and I believe she had to resign as well)
                            "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                            "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                            "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by VetLegion
                              Weak!

                              Teach us how to become a guru and have a cult of teenage girl followers!
                              Word up get yo hoes in INTERNATIONAL area codes you know how we do it DONT GET IT TWISTED
                              We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

                              Comment

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