The new wine thread.

[Last Conformist]

I had a really good Rioja this Tuesday.

Or maybe I just thought it was really good because of all the beer and vodka I had drunk earlier during the night ...

[loinburger]

My wine comes in a box.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I strongly suggest not to buy a Bordeaux wine over 10€/$. Bordeaux enjoys a great image, and because of that it overcharges an average/mediocre product.

The Bordeaux area is actually mass-producing wine because it has a large demand. As a result, all lands are dedicated to wines (even mediocre lands that should have never been used this way). They make as much wine as possible from the grape, meaning that part of the yield is very low-quality. And they homogenize the taste by giving as much wood flavour as technically possible (use of brand new wood barrels, addition of pieces of wood in the wine). Lastly, many Bordeaux wines are newly exploited, and the winemakers are fairly inexperienced, or even worse, lack in wine culture.

Anything over 10€/$ for a Bordeaux is a ripoff. Any Bordeaux that costs less than 10€/$ is bound to suck horribly. Forget about Bordeaux *

I have to say, I couldn't disagree more. Yes, when it comes to cheap Bordeaux, a lot of it is mass produced, high yield and leads to low quality wines. Looking at wines from £5-10 in the UK (though without the same tax cost €5-10 in France), you'll find very little to excite you. However in the £10-20 catagory, there's a *lot* of decent wine. There are still many winemakers in Bordeaux that love the art of wine, that are passionate about traditional wine-making methods, and that create bottles you can't get from any other area of the world. If you're willing to pay for them, Bordeaux wines have a quality that's second to none.

In that price range, you don't want a plain appelation. You can find some absolute gems in the Cru Borgeouis catagory, which have to conform to a higher standard and a lower yield. If you really want quality however, you have to look at the Cru Classe, from 5eme cru up to the fabled 1eme crus. You can pick up a nice, drinking-age 5eme cru for around £20 in the UK that will be a beautifully crafted bottle. If you're willing to keep them for a few years, you might be able to pick one up cheaper. Not all 5eme crus are amazing, but I've yet to try one that hasn't got a level of complexity and subtleties that completely surpasses anything I'd normally drink.

If you want depth, complexity and body, and you're willing to pay for it, Bordeaux is the answer. Similarly, if you want to try something of similar quality, complexity, and sadly price, Burgundy offers a very different flavour, especially to someone used to Californian and Australian reds. Thinner, more subtle and always interesting, Burgundy's are also overpriced, due to the name, but I've had a few bottles that were really worth it.

My personal recommendation to people used to New World wines wanting to try some French bottles is to look at Langedoc and the Rhone valley. Langedoc is famous for French country wines, and is full of New World winemakers using French grapes on French soil, to great effect. It doesn't have the tradition, but it has the full, rich body you've come to expect from Aussie/Cali wines and they're very underpriced. I've picked up very nice Langedoc bottles for around £5 (€9). The Rhone valley has a long tradition of wine, and some of the appelations have a price to match - especially the much sought after Chateuneuf du Pape - but they're again into their beefy, rounded wines. Lots of Syrah (Shiraz to any New Worldie), Grenache and Mouverdre here, leading to easy drinking wines for red meats. If I'm in a pub with family having a big hearty roast/steak, I'll usually order a Sourther Rhone wine.

In the UK, IMHO, the world of wine tends to go...

If you want something easily drinkable that's very cheap: Chile, Argentina, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Langedoc/Rousillion

If you want a wine where you get what you pay for, it's good, and not massively overpriced, but you won't find many bargains: California, South Africa, Australia (yes, there are some lovely complex New World wines, but even in Napa from the vineyards, they were $40+ a bottle, which is too much for me)

If you want something special, with complexity, that's a bit more variable and a bit more interesting: Burgundy (if you find Cabernet a bit heavy), Bordeaux (if you have money), Rhone (if you like big, round, alcoholic wines) and Rioja/Ribero del Duero (if you like very old, big, round wines).

My knowledge of Spanish wines is somewhat limited. Rioja is always the famous one, though with it's name goes a price premium. Ribero del Duero is getting there, but has some real gems. *Huge*, beefy wines, but some real gems. Spanish wines should always be drunk old. We're talking 5-15 years old. Only classed growth Bordeaux should be drunk older.

This is all leaving out one of my personal faves, however - Italian wines. Yes, they can be very rustic, but there's lots of class, lot's of complexity and if you choose something that doesn't say "Chianti Classico" on the front in big letters, it doesn't have the price premium to match. You have grapes you don't find elsewhere, so it's quite different to many other areas, though with some taste similarities to Spanish wine. Chianti most people have heard of, and there are some great wines there. Personally I like Valipolicella, although since it's fallen out of fashion a bit a lot of supermarkets produce cheap, mass produced versions, which sully the name. Decent Valipolicella is beautiful, softer than Bordeaux and the New World, but with depth, complexity and flavour that isn't masked by a big fat hit of flavour and/or alcohol.

The biggest tip of all, certainly in the UK, is to find a wineshop you like, that chooses it's bottles well, and try new things. Majestic has superstores all over the UK, and whatever I've tried (we're talking over 100 bottles from there - a large sample) has been exceptional value for money, without fail. They stock anything from £5-100, and every wine they stock has gone been tasted and approved. It's how I try out new wines, I go in and pick something from an area I haven't tried. Or read a newspaper and see what they recommend - many UK newpapers recommend wines you can buy in a supermarket a few times a year.

It's impossible to recommend labels, as the ones we get here you won't get in the US - as with many things, almost all of the decent old world wines are non-mass produced. For people who are used to New World wines, I'd recommend to get a bottle from Langedoc, maybe one from the Rhone valley, and definately something from Italy or Spain. Try to look for ones *without* famous names - if they're cheap, they're crap and if they're expensive, they're overpriced. You pay for the name, so it's better to stick with a bottle where you're paying for the wine, unless you want to spend $40+ per bottle. Random wines from a good stockist is a great way to try new areas and new grapes

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Japher
my dad likes Viogniers

I don't drink wines, but try and keep on them for cooking. Mainly, I just get my dad's word for it, as I don't like to spend more than 20 bucks on a bottle if I'm going to cook with it, but he generally drinks stuff like Bighouse and 2 Buck Chuck which are cheep. A nice Viognier is a treat for him, and it's a Euro wine from what I know.

Actually, Viognier is used quite a bit in Napa and Sonoma, though there is a good quantity of French Viognier. Lovely grape, much more rounded than Sauvignon Blanc and with more character than Chardonnay

[Thorgal]

Well there is many wines around my geographical zone (extreme southern Spain) being the most famous the ones from jerez . If you like Sherry fortified (high alcoholic %) wines there are some good stuff at reasonably low prices from Gonzlez Byass, Osborne or Domeq being cheaper lines at about 8-15€ (all prices in Spain) you can find since very sweet (pedro ximenez) to very dry "olorosos" (Tio Pepe for instance). If you are looking for something a bit more exclusive and complex there are very old dry sherries finos "amontillados". They are more expensive than the former , prices can go since 15-20€ to 200-300 € per bottle or more (there are 200 years old bottles or even older) .
Leaving Jerez southwards to Sanlucar at the Guadalquivir´s mouth you can find Manzanilla (another fortified sherry-type wine very dry but fresher and generally younger than Fino) Lustau Papirusa or Barbadillo since about 6-10€ only.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Drogue

I
If you want a wine where you get what you pay for, it's good, and not massively overpriced, but you won't find many bargains: California, South Africa, Australia (yes, there are some lovely complex New World wines, but even in Napa from the vineyards, they were $40+ a bottle, which is too much for me)

Well Napa is, IIUC, virtually the Haut Medoc of California - anything made there gets a premium. I too havent drunk any Napa wines for years. Though I dont doubt there are some good values tucked away there.

But of course (as you hint at in your next post) there are many good Calif wines from elsewhere - Sonoma, Mendocino, the Central Coast, etc. But then I suspect Oerdin is quite aware of those already

[Chemical Ollie]

Oh no, not another whine thread...

I drink Copertino (Italian red wine). Goes excellent with garlic spiced BBQ meat.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Primitivo is my favourite, particularly Virtuoso Primitivo 2000. £10 a bottle, but fabulously rich.

The most expensive wine I've got in right now is Chateau Liot. It's a Sauternes, and £12 for a half-bottle. It's the king of dessert wines- oily, strong and honeyish.

I've also got a few bottles of Rioja, a very nice Spanish one made from Garnacha and Syrah, a couple of bottles of Gewurztraminer and a couple bottles of Beaumes de Venise. They're all good.

My favorite French wine is Chateauneuf-du-Pape, but I'm all out (hic!).

[Drogue]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Well Napa is, IIUC, virtually the Haut Medoc of California - anything made there gets a premium. I too havent drunk any Napa wines for years. Though I dont doubt there are some good values tucked away there.

But of course (as you hint at in your next post) there are many good Calif wines from elsewhere - Sonoma, Mendocino, the Central Coast, etc. But then I suspect Oerdin is quite aware of those already

Oh completely, but if you want complexity, you'll have to pay a hell of a lot for it in California. When I say Napa vineyards, I went tasting around Napa, Sonoma and Sonora in the East (where they make Ironstone), and in all of them you had to pay a large amount of the complex, subtle wines. That's not a bad thing, most people prefer their wines to taste pleasant rather than complex, most people look for body, palate and aroma, rather than little subtleties. If you want a good taste, a nice, round body and some suitably fruity aroma's, the New World is very good. It's why it's so popular in many places (especially the UK). However if you want subtleties, the kind of things that seem to come from traditional ways of doing things that seem slightly silly in the modern age, that's where the great strength of French wines lies.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm saying that the Old World does better for complexities at a low price point, but is inconsistent, whereas the New World tends to be more consistent but can lack the subtleties unless you're willing to spend large $$$s.

[duke o' york]

The local plonk in any French bar (save Paris, obviously), tends to be far better than anything less than £30 you get in the shops here. Plus, you get to meet the weirdo locals.
(Even better is the moment that they realise you've understood everything they've been saying after playing the tourist card heavily when you went in. )

[dudemanjack]

Originally posted by loinburger
My wine comes in a box.

I prefer the giant jugs of wine to the boxed stuff.

[Jon Miller]

I just bought bottles of

Santa Cristina Antinori

Mas Janeil

I think the second one is a product of france

the first one sounds foreign also

jM

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by duke o' york
The local plonk in any French bar (save Paris, obviously), tends to be far better than anything less than £30 you get in the shops here. )

Bullpoo. That's the same myth that states that Guinness tastes different in Dublin. It doesn't.

Cheap plonk remains cheap plonk, even when accompanied by a man in a beret and a striped shirt, wearing onions around his neck, and enigmatically kicking an immigrant to death to the accompaniment of accordion music.

[Spiffor]

True

The correct statement would be:

Originally posted by duke o' york
The local plonk in any French bar (save Paris, obviously), tends to be identical than anything less than £30 you get in the shops here. )

[chequita guevara]

If you want to learn about good old world wines, this is a great club to join. https://www.internationalwine.com/index.aspx Not all of the wines are old world, but they are all good.

http://www.atasteofcalifornia.com/ is also good, but obviously only California wines.