Further EU integration... what is it?

[VetLegion]

What exactly is further integration of EU countries? I see it mentioned, as in "Briatian wants to slow down further EU integration", but what would it mean in reality?

Let's say only France and Germany were in the Union, all ready and and willing , what could they do to integrate further?

And does EU as it is now do to integrate further? Are there any long term plans or something?

[Spiffor]

Re: Further EU integration... what is it?

Originally posted by VetLegion
What exactly is further integration of EU countries? I see it mentioned, as in "Briatian wants to slow down further EU integration", but what would it mean in reality?

Let's say only France and Germany were in the Union, all ready and and willing , what could they do to integrate further?

- A possibility would be a streamlining of the decision process, where more decisions are taken on the supranational level, rather than on the intergovernmental level.
(these words are not always clear. Basically, intergovernmental decision process is when envoys of each government strive for their countries' interests, and haggle with each other - OTOH, supranational is when a cohesive leadership is supposed to look for the general interest of all of Europe).

- Tax harmonization

- Harmonization in welfare systems.

- An actual common foreign and security policy, which becomes increasingly decided at the supranational level.

- Democratization of the EU institutions, where the leaders and the policies are accountable to the citizens or to the European Parliament, instead of being accountable to negociators.

And does EU as it is now do to integrate further? Are there any long term plans or something?

The constitution was a conservative attempt to move a bit further. More things were decided at the majority rather than at the unanimity. The Parliament had a bit more power than now.

However, the constitution did not solve The EU's main problem: there is no vision every country agrees to. For example, expect the Rosbifs here (and not only them) to scream bloody murder upon seeing things like "tax harmonization". The Rosbifs and many others want the EU to be a mere free trade area. However, many countries (and their population) want a "bloc Europe" which would make us stronger.
These two visions are wholly unreconciliable. We'd be much better if these two views for Europe parted with each other and went their merry way, but it won't hapopen. And Europe will be in a stalemate until a big crisis either forces us to force one way over the other, or to force the separation between the two visions.

[Gangerolf]

In general I believe integration means that more power is given to the EU institutions which are not controlled by the various national governments, like the European Parliament and the Commission.

Decision-making would probably be smoother, but some would question the democratic legitimacy of this and so on. I think that's the debate.

And AFAIK there aren't really any long term plans after the Constitution went down the drain.


edit: or what Spiffor said

[Provost Harrison]

It's further EU integration...silly

Also...Briatian?

[Al'Kimiya]

ein volk, ein reich...

[Footie Mad]

It's more of ignoring the low population countries like Sweden and making decisions that don't suit us or is in line with the general will of the people. I've been to Strasbourg, I know everything of the horrible corrupt conspiracy.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Footie Mad
I've been to Strasbourg, I know everything of the horrible corrupt conspiracy.

I must admit that, when I worked in the European Parliament, it was for a very specific grroup (the Commies, who tend to be very dedicated to the service of the people). But how is the European Parliament a hoorible corrupt conspiracy?

[Al'Kimiya]

Originally posted by Footie Mad
It's more of ignoring the low population countries like Sweden and making decisions that don't suit us or is in line with the general will of the people. I've been to Strasbourg, I know everything of the horrible corrupt conspiracy.

Moving away decision making from common Swedes are imho a good thing. Mindless sheep ignorant of the greater agenda

[Pekka]

FOotie Mad is right though.

Someone in France and Germany doesn't know about anything that happens in here, or the conditions, or what is benefitial to us.

THey are Corruptonites, dressed in TRUE EURO jump suits, ready to roger each other and smile for the cameras. BUt their breath stinks like their plan, and patriots will see through to it, that none of us make this thing out alive...

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Al'Kimiya
Moving away decision making from common Swedes are imho a good thing. Mindless sheep ignorant of the greater agenda

Considering that the only institution located in Strasbourg that has some importance is the European Parliament, I think you're shooting yourself in the foot

(unaccountable institutions, such as the Council and the Commission, are in Brussels)

[Footie Mad]

Originally posted by Al'Kimiya


Moving away decision making from common Swedes are imho a good thing. Mindless sheep ignorant of the greater agenda

I think swedes are very territorial. We don't trust foreign influences much and the whole concept of handing over power to larger institutions is frightening. We are scared of the people not having our mindset controlling our society. Wether it's a righteous fear I'm not sure really.

But my gut instinct tells me that if we had a national vote in a week where people would choose between strenghtening the EU and its power. Alternatively starting a Northern Union with Norway, Finland, Sweden and Denmark and handed over more power to that cooperation. I am sure the Northern Union would get like 80% of the votes or something.

[VetLegion]

Re: Re: Further EU integration... what is it?

Spiffor, ok, thanks for the explanation, informative as usual, but are these things all that important?

Are they even possible? EU can never be as integrated as the USA (language and culture barriers and so on), and USA is not all that integrated. For example:

Originally posted by Spiffor
- Tax harmonization

Doesn't exist in the USA.

- Harmonization in welfare systems.

Doesn't exist in the USA.

- An actual common foreign and security policy, which becomes increasingly decided at the supranational level.

OK, good point. I don't know why that would be so important for the average European though. OK, it would help contain Danish expansionism and agression, there's that. But on average an inept foreign policy may be best for peace in the world and other hippie pursuits.

- Democratization of the EU institutions, where the leaders and the policies are accountable to the citizens or to the European Parliament, instead of being accountable to negociators.

OK. Good goal.

[Pekka]

northern union would own 100%. Not even a question in here, and I'm talking majority now, not just bringing out my opinion. Anyone who would claim otherwise would be out of touch from reality.

However, I'd like to see.. you know I wouldn't mind if we had few different centralized EU leading spots, one here in North, consisting of us and maybe Balts(?), and then the others could have their own groups.

Because now, our special needs won't be given the time that woudl be fair, or the .. consideration we need to have, this becomes one bureocratic hell soon and nothing gets done, especially nothing with low priority like the north.

This is one of those 100% things you know you'll be saying 'I told you so' after few years.

[VetLegion]

I think EU institute for foods should be in Finland

[Spiffor]

Re: Re: Re: Further EU integration... what is it?

Originally posted by VetLegion

Tax Harmonization

Doesn't exist in the USA.

Well, in the US, the federation has a very sizeable budget, and the federation has decided tax cuts worth of billions. By "harmonization", I don't necessarily mean "make everything identical", but "give a similar set of rules for taxation among the countries, and give an actual budget to the federal level".

For the time being, the EU doesn't have the ability to get money from its own. The EU budget is an allowance given by each country. In France, it is paid by the local taxes (instead of having a specific "EU tax" or something).

Harmonization in welfare systems

Doesn't exist in the USA.

The US doesn't care one nothc for welfare. In the American psyche, welfare is evil and is communism. However, welfare is an essential part of most European democracies. The comparison with the US is irrelevant in this regard IMO.
Even the very liberal commission officially aims at "defending the European model of development, which conciles the market and social protection". Welfare really is present in people's minds in Europe, contrary to the US.

An actuall common foreign and security policy

OK, good point. I don't know why that would be so important for the average European though. OK, it would help contain Danish expansionism and agression, there's that. But on average an inept foreign policy may be best for peace in the world and other hippie pursuits.

Well, in a world where the US will progressively lose their status as hegemon, our dear protector will increasingly look for its interests and ignore ours. If we don't want to get throughly ****ed in geopolitical matters, we need such a thing. There are quite a few resources at hand, including oil.