Do you think the US is better off now then in 2000?

[Verto]

Shuttup commie.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Verto
Shuttup commie.

I miss tassy!

[Geronimo]

appointments to the supreme court are probably the only worthwhile thing Bush will have done as compared to gore or Kerry.

I would add his new vision for Nasa if it wasn't for the fact that his gargantuan deficits probably do more to threaten nasa's long term success than any lack of reform of it's manned exploration vision could have.

Nonetheless the country overall is in somewhat better shape than it was in 2000 simply because that bubble is finally behind us. better that happened sooner rather than later. Although I don't give Bush any credit for that.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Sava
Do I think 9-11 was preventable? Absolutely. Do I know for sure? Absolutely not. And I'm not saying anything is for sure. I'm just saying it is likely things could have turned out differently.

9/11 was preventable, but Gore wouldn't have prevented it. What he would have done was continue what Clinton was doing, which wouldn't have helped. Only 3 things could have prevented 9/11:

1) Tightening up the process of granting visas. Visa applications were practically rubber-stamped in Saudi Arabia, because we were worried about illegal immigrants, not terrorrists -- and Saudis had a great track record of returning to their own country.

2) Getting agencies to share information. The visa officers in Saudi had no idea they were giving visas to guys on government watch lists, because those watch lists were never shared with teh State Department. To paraphrase Dr. Strangelove, a watchlist doesn't work if you keep it a secret.

3) Tightening up airport security.

None of these problems were problems created by Bush. All of these things were standard operating procedure under Clinton, who, for all his worry about terrorism, did nothing to fix them. There's absolutley no reason to suspect that Gore would have lept into action and changed everything in 8 short months, especially given that he'd been part of the administration that hadn't changed things yet.

I bow to no man in my disgust with Bush, but blaming 9/11 on him is ridiculous.

[GePap]

The simpler reason its unlikely Gore would have been able to stop 9/11 is that in the end, the conspiracy was already moving forward, and unless the hijackers had dome something really stupid, their plans would have in the end moved forward.

[Wiglaf]

HEY Sava -

For all the books you've read, maybe you could try the 9/11 commission's report. NOT THAT IT'S MY JOB TO DO RESEARCH FOR YOU BUT OH MY GOD HERE IS THE LINK

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19525

The recent publication of some once-censored parts of the 9/11 Commission report reveals that, in 1998, federal intelligence sources had shared their concern that al-Qaeda could be planning to use passenger airplanes as missiles on suicide raids against prominent targets in the United States. This is the first time we've heard that that the possibility of such a suicide mission was raised at the federal level during the Clinton years.

Perhaps in light of first bombing Clinton should have taken this more seriously as well.

For you to say that Clinton's crony Gore man would have fixed the situation is borderline toxic.

[Dinner]

We knew about 2-3 of the terrorists and that they'd be trying to enter the US to commit a terror attack and we knew that planes were something Al Qaeda was considering but no one put one and one together. It's unlikely anyone would have. They might have prevented the entry of those 2-3 guys (like they did prevent the entry of 1 of the guys) but that would have hardly have prevented 9/11.

It might have delayed it or forced them to use less experienced, trained, and brain washed people but it still would have happened. All in all that's a wash between Bush and Gore. Just about everything else breaks in Gore's favor.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
Perhaps in light of first bombing Clinton should have taken this more seriously as well.

For you to say that Clinton's crony Gore man would have fixed the situation is borderline toxic.

Clinton did take it seriously and greatly increased funding for anti-terrorism efforts and attempted to improve relations with muslim states and improve our image in the muslim world. That Clinton had us intervine to prevent the ethnic cleansing of a muslim minority in Kosovo actually played very well in muslim world. You seem to want Clinton to make it impossible for Arabs to enter the country without an anal probe or something which wasn't going to happen pre-9/11 especially not in 1998.

If he'd tried we would have seen the right wingers whine endlessly about how unnecissary and anti-business the new rules were. Sadly, it took 9/11 to make people agree to change the visa rules while we still haven't secured the borders. Lastly, however little you think Clinton did the fact remains that Bush did even less and even defunded the few things Clinton did do. Put your anger where it belongs.

[Wiglaf]

Yes, it's all about our image in the muslim world, isn't it?

I put my anger with the people who think increasing funding for anti-terrorism efforts helps to stop islamic extremism, check your facts.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
Yes, it's all about our image in the muslim world, isn't it?

I put my anger with the people who think increasing funding for anti-terrorism efforts helps to stop islamic extremism, check your facts.

Your method of bombing their countries doesn't seem to be working, however.

[Wiglaf]

Iraq was an honest mistake.

[Wiglaf]

Postscript, It was the right thing to do, given the cirumstances. But that debate is settled by now.

[Verto]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
Iraq was an honest mistake.

Maybe on the part of the Average Joe, for believing the Administration when they told what most knew to be questionable, if not bald-faced lies/

[Wiglaf]

The ONLY lie was from Rumsfeld when he said on Meet the Press that he knew where the weapons were. At least that's what I think he said, I was very hawkish myself in those days.

The rest is all based on Iraq's refusal to account for missing weapons...

Edit to add, the "honest mistake" was the intel, not the justification for war.

[Ted Striker]

USA 2000: Greatest power ever, USA!

USA 2005: A ****ing joke

Wait until the next batch of Abu Gharib photos are released.