Turkish Hackers...

[VetLegion]

Man, I didn't know Karelia was this hotly contested. Finns, Russians, and now even the Turks want it:

[VetLegion]

And there is an organization behind this Turkish-Hungarian-Finnish unity project:

http://geocities.com/turanianarmy/

What I won't learn...

[Dinner]

Originally posted by VetLegion

Turanism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Turanism, or Pan-Turanism, is a political movement for the union of all Turkic peoples, and as such is equivalent to Pan-Turkism. Georgeon and Landau extended Pan-Turanism, however, to be not only unity of all Turks, but also unity of Turks with Hungarians, Mongolians and Finns.

Finns?

ROTFLMAO

Finns are part of the Turko-Altaic sub-branch of the Indo-European language family. I also knew that Hungarian was related to Finnish and Turkish but I didn't know Mongolian was.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by VetLegion
It's interesting that this guy seems to have been a shamanist or a pagan of some sort. Do you have any idea how big his movement/following was? He has a couple of web pages dedicated to him which probably means he was influential.

I'm curious because I would expect Panturkism to have a strong Islamic component, calling on the heritage of Sultan being the Caliph and spiritual leader of muslims and so on.

You're actually right about the Islamist component.

Pan-Turkism had its heydey during the late Ottoman period, when the decline of the Empire was irreversible and many intellectuals were looking for a silver-bullet ideology to set things straight. Pan-Turkism of the time was heavily associated with Islam, although reminiscing about the Shaman past as well. The most famous Pan-Turkist of the period was Enver Pasha, the Minister of War during WWI.

Enver was one of the key figures responsible for plunging Turkey into the war on the side of Germany. After the war, he ended up in Tsarist Central Asia and tried to organise a Turkic uprising there, eventually getting killed in the process by Tsarist Forces.

With the end of WWI and then of the Turkish War of Liberation, Pan-Turkism quickly became marginalised under the watchful eye of Atatürk, who imbued the Republic with more of a sense of patriotism than of nationalism.

Later on, when multi-party democracy nominally started in 1950s, pan-Turkism toyed briefly with the shamanist nostalgia, but maintained the Islamic emphasis. Actually, they call the essence of their ideology as a "Turkish-Islamic synthesis" (Turkish in race, Muslim in religion, but not pro-Sharia or anything like that).

This development is also reflected in the political fate of Nihal Atsiz. I don't actually know much about him or his ideas, but from the lack of mention anywhere about him for a long while I can only infer that he had only a fleeting impact on the pan-Turkist movement, despite the fact that he may still have some adherents now. Türkeþ remained the center of the nationalist movement until his death in the 90s, and his "Turkish-Islamic synthesis" remained the cornerstone of the nationalist/pan-Turkist movement and more successful in making an appeal (as nobody's really interested in converting to Shamanism).

The collapse of the USSR brought a temporary enthusiasm in this movement for a pan-Turkic union, but soon it became clear that rhetoric is not enough for such a grandiose undertaking. As a result, nationalists now keep that kind of stuff alive for inspiration but without making it the cornerstone of their ideology and agenda, effectively adopting a more Turkey-centric approach (raising hell about Kurdish cultural rights, ranting about surrendering Cyprus, criticising government's impotence towards the plight of Turkmens in Iraq etc).

Alpaslan Türkeþ's party (MHP) regularly commanded around 5-7% of the popular vote in the since the 60s and now has a following of around 8-10 %. It was a partner in the previous government (chronologically after Türkeþ's death). During their time in power, they took care not to look too lunatic about Central Asia etc, but rather played on populist issues while acting like a centre-right party in economic matters.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by VetLegion

Turanism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Turanism, or Pan-Turanism, is a political movement for the union of all Turkic peoples, and as such is equivalent to Pan-Turkism. Georgeon and Landau extended Pan-Turanism, however, to be not only unity of all Turks, but also unity of Turks with Hungarians, Mongolians and Finns.

Finns?

ROTFLMAO

And not only the Finns but also the Hungarians are already in the EU! OMG!!! Arrest them all and man the barricades before the Turks join up with them! The secret Turanian invasion of Europe is already underway!!!!11!1

[ahasverus]

At Oerdin: Altaic is not part of the Indoeuropean language family. It's its own family although the linguists have an idea that they are related to Finno-Ugric.

Altaic:
1: Turkish languages
2: Mongolian same
3: Manchu-Tungusic same
And probably
4: Korean
5: Japanese

Finno-Ugric
1: Finnish
2: Estonian
3: Lappish
4: Volga languages
5: Permian same

6: 2 languages on the Ob
7: Hungarian

Together with the Samoyedic languages Finno-Ugric forms Uralian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Finns are part of the Turko-Altaic sub-branch of the Indo-European language family. I also knew that Hungarian was related to Finnish and Turkish but I didn't know Mongolian was.

finnish,hungarian, estonian, and some languages in the Karelia area are Finno Ugric. Turkish, mongolian, and their relatives are Ural-Altaic. IIUC the linkage of Finno-ugric to Ural-altaic is distant, and maybe controversial. Neither grouping is part of Indoeuropean.

edit: what aha said. Though i think the linkage to japanese is also pretty controversial

[Pekka]

LOTM and ahasverus are right.

Oerdin. You are wrong.

[Ted Striker]

[Sir Og]

Excelent argument for panturkism Ted.

Those hackers should be posting pics like that instead of intranslatable poems.

[molly bloom]

Re: Re: Turkish Hackers...

Originally posted by Ancyrean




** Kýmýz is a traditional drink in Central Asia, made from horse milk and a little quantity of horse blood, has a slight degree of alchohol I guess.

Known in English as kumiss-

Kumiss

From The Mission of Friar William of Rubrick

His journey to the court of the Great Khan Mongke

1253-1255

Chapter IV: HOW THEY MAKE COMOS


(1) Comos - namely, mare's milk - is made in the following way. They stretch above the ground a long rope between two stakes stuck in the sod, and around the third hour [nine o'clock] tether to the rope the foals of the mares they intend to milk. Then the mares stand beside their foals and let themselves be milked peacefully. In the event of any of them proving intractable, one man takes the foal and puts it underneath her to let it suck a little, and then withdraws it while the milker takes its place.



(2) So having collected a great quantity of milk, which when fresh is as sweet as cow's milk, they pour it into a large skin or bag, and set about churning it with a club which is made for this purpose, as thick at the lower end as a man's head and hollowed out. As they stir it rapidly, it begins to bubble like new wine and to turn sour or ferment, and they keep churning it until they extract the butter.



(3) Next they taste it, and when it is moderately pungent they drink it. While one is drinking it, it stings the tongue like rape wine, but after one has finished drinking it leaves on the tongue a taste of milk of almonds. It produces a very agreeable sensation inside and even intoxicates those with no strong head; it also markedly brings on urination.



(4) Besides this, caracomos - that is, black comos - is made for the great lords, in the following way. Mare's milk does not curdle. For it is a rule that when no rennet is found in the belly of an animal's young, that animal's milk does not curdle: and since it is not found in a foal's stomach, mare's milk does not curdle. So they churn it to the point where everything solid in it sinks straight to the bottom, like the dregs of wine, and what is clear remains on top and resembles whey or white must. The dregs are very white, and are given to the slaves: they are highly soporific. The clear part the lords consume, and it is certainly a really delightful drink and fairly potent.

http://www.iras.ucalgary.ca/~volk/sylvia/Kumiss.htm

Yum yum- fermented mares' milk.

[VetLegion]

Ancyrean, thanks for the info, interesting.

[laurentius]

The Turanian army seems like somekind of Turkish day dream. Its obviously a joke.