Religion causes abortion, teen pregnancy, and homicide!

[Last Conformist]

Well, perhaps not, but here's a study showing that among developed democracies, high levels of religious beliefs correlate positively with various markers of societal dysfunction, such as abortion, homicide, and teenage pregnancies:

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2005-11.pdf

Correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation, as we all know, but this should nonetheless provide some food for thought. In particular, those who would tell us that unbelief causes immorality have some explaining to do.

[Bereta_Eder]

pity post

[Spiffor]

I really should troll this thread

[Sava]

good post TLC

[:) Smiley]

There's a possible reason for causation, as more religious societies tend to have a black and white view of social problems, and are unwilling to use grayscale solutions for those who reject the religion's ideology.

[MrFun]

Re: Religion causes abortion, teen pregnancy, and homicide!

Originally posted by Last Conformist
Well, perhaps not, but here's a study showing that among developed democracies, high levels of religious beliefs correlate positively with various markers of societal dysfunction, such as abortion, homicide, and teenage pregnancies:

Atheists have their stereotypes of religious believers and religious believers have their stereotypes of permissive liberals.

I'm a Christian, and I go to a local gay community church whenever I have free time before work on Sundays.

I must be a raving pro-life, homophobic evangelical waiting to come out to my true self.

[Spiffor]

IMO, the causation goes both ways. The rise of religious values in the west can be seen as a reaction to the changes in society, especially to the changes in family and sexual life. Thus, the religious reaction can be a byproduct of "immorality".


However, I think that the most important causation is the one stating religion --> "immorality". At least, in our advanced countries.

Indeed, we live in societies whose inherent values are individualism, self fulfillment, and consumerism. This implies an "I do what I want, and I do it now" spirit, which has both upsides and downsides. Most western religionists, btw, do not oppose this philosophy inherently, only some consequences of it (like divorce, early sexuality, and things like that).

On the other hand, religious morals place a considerable amount of limitations over human behaviour. It sets many aims that are "good" to reach (wishable), but that are impossible to reach for most of us. How many westerner girls will remain virgin until marriage? How many westerner women can only see themselves as homemakers? How many boys will resist the coolness of a quick sex if opportunity arises?

Answer: not many. At least, not in our post-enlightenment societies. So, where religious values are weak, this is accepted as a fact of life, and instead of fighting against it, these societies try to accomodate it so that any dire consequence is avoided. OTOH, in the societies where religious values are strong, it creates a confusion in moral values, which make society quite 'schizophrenic' about what to do: on the one hand, it's cool to have sex while young, but it's sin

This moral 'schizophrenia' leads to absurd societal responses to the challenges of abortion and teen sexuality. The public response can be completely inconsistent. But more interestingly, you can end up with having pregnant "sluts" who are the shame of the family, you can have young people with very insufficient knowledge on sex past to "sex is sin", etc.

[Last Conformist]

Re: Re: Religion causes abortion, teen pregnancy, and homicide!

Originally posted by MrFun


Atheists have their stereotypes of religious believers and religious believers have their stereotypes of permissive liberals.

I'm a Christian, and I go to a local gay community church whenever I have free time before work on Sundays.

I must be a raving pro-life, homophobic evangelical waiting to come out to my true self.

Please explain what this has to do with the remark of mine you quoted.

[MrFun]

Re: Re: Re: Religion causes abortion, teen pregnancy, and homicide!

Originally posted by Last Conformist
Please explain what this has to do with the remark of mine you quoted.

The correlation between with having a religious belief, and societal dysfunction. One can run away with this point that you have brought up, and go overboard, saying that all faithful people, such as myself belong in the same boat with right-wing religious nuts.

[Last Conformist]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Religion causes abortion, teen pregnancy, and homicide!

Originally posted by MrFun


The correlation between with having a religious belief, and societal dysfunction. One can run away with this point that you have brought up, and go overboard, saying that all faithful people, such as myself belong in the same boat with right-wing religious nuts.

Yes, and one can also claim the moon is made of cheese.

What the study shows is correlation between religious belief and society dysfunction. While this is deeply problematic for those who hold that atheism leads to such dysfunction, it does not establish that religion is necessarily the cause of it either*, or that those you endearingly calle "right-wing religious nuts" are more relevant than other religious people.

* Maybe both American religiosity and American societal dysfunction are results of something the Evul Librul Konspiracy is putting in the water.

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by Spiffor
IMO, the causation goes both ways.

Might as well be that both are caused by a third factor. Or that the correlation is plain coincidence.

[Jon Miller]

umm

if you actually read it, religious = USA, nonreligious = every other first world country

one example does not a correlation make, there are many other differences between the US and other first world countries besides religiousity

JM

[Colonâ„¢]

jon mllre wise a man

[Last Conformist]

Wise or not, Jon Miller is wrong - as a look at the figures would tell you, for many of the measures the correlation remains even if you remove the United States.

[Jon Miller]

look at the data points..

there is nothing statistically significant there... (assuming no data collection errors)

JM