"The tree of liberty must be refreshed... with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

[Sandman]

It's the standard argument of gun-ownership types. Guns should be legal so that tyrannical forms of government can be overthrown if they appear.

What I want to know is, when does it become OK for me, as a hypothetical gun-owning patriot, to turn my weapons on the agents of tyranny? Is there some cut-off point where shooting police or other government employees becomes fighting for freedom, as opposed to simply murder?

[lord of the mark]

isnt this a question even if for a gun control supporter?

I think gun control is a good idea (i dont think the revolution will be made with Saturday night specials) but the question of when revolution is just still comes up, unless youre either a pacifist, or a pure Hobbesian.

[lord of the mark]

Not all the treasures of the world, so far as I believe, could have induced me to support an offensive war, for I think it murder; but if a thief breaks into my house, burns and destroys my property, and kills or threatens to kill me, or those that are in it, and to "bind me in all cases whatsoever" to his absolute will, am I to suffer it?

Thomas Paine, The American Crisis, No. 1, December 19, 1776

[lord of the mark]

Walt Whitman (on 1848)

To a foil’d European Revolutionaire

1

COURAGE yet! my brother or my sister!
Keep on! Liberty is to be subserv’d, whatever occurs;
That is nothing, that is quell’d by one or two failures, or any number of failures,
Or by the indifference or ingratitude of the people, or by any unfaithfulness,
Or the show of the tushes of power, soldiers, cannon, penal statutes. 5

Revolt! and still revolt! revolt!
What we believe in waits latent forever through all the continents, and all the islands and archipelagos of the sea;
What we believe in invites no one, promises nothing, sits in calmness and light, is positive and composed, knows no discouragement,
Waiting patiently, waiting its time.

(Not songs of loyalty alone are these, 10
But songs of insurrection also;
For I am the sworn poet of every dauntless rebel, the world over,
And he going with me leaves peace and routine behind him,
And stakes his life, to be lost at any moment.)

2

Revolt! and the downfall of tyrants! 15
The battle rages with many a loud alarm, and frequent advance and retreat,
The infidel triumphs—or supposes he triumphs,
Then the prison, scaffold, garrote, hand-cuffs, iron necklace and anklet, lead-balls, do their work,
The named and unnamed heroes pass to other spheres,
The great speakers and writers are exiled—they lie sick in distant lands, 20
The cause is asleep—the strongest throats are still, choked with their own blood,
The young men droop their eyelashes toward the ground when they meet;
—But for all this, liberty has not gone out of the place, nor the infidel enter’d into full possession.

When liberty goes out of a place, it is not the first to go, nor the second or third to go,
It waits for all the rest to go—it is the last. 25

When there are no more memories of heroes and martyrs,
And when all life, and all the souls of men and women are discharged from any part of the earth,
Then only shall liberty, or the idea of liberty, be discharged from that part of the earth,
And the infidel come into full possession.

3

Then courage! European revolter! revoltress! 30
For, till all ceases, neither must you cease.

I do not know what you are for, (I do not know what I am for myself, nor what anything is for,)
But I will search carefully for it even in being foil’d,
In defeat, poverty, misconception, imprisonment—for they too are great.

Revolt! and the bullet for tyrants! 35
Did we think victory great?
So it is—But now it seems to me, when it cannot be help’d, that defeat is great,
And that death and dismay are great.

[General Ludd]

Re: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed... with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

Originally posted by Sandman

What I want to know is, when does it become OK for me, as a hypothetical gun-owning patriot, to turn my weapons on the agents of tyranny? Is there some cut-off point where shooting police or other government employees becomes fighting for freedom, as opposed to simply murder?

When they point a gun at you.

That doesn't stop it from being murder though. Murder is murder.

[Zulu Elephant]

i'm trying to think of circumstances under which revolution becomes the legitimate course of action.

...and I'm finding it hard to think of a phrasing that wouldn't have allowed it after the 2001 US presidential election

[Dr Strangelove]

It's easy silly..... revolution is OK when your duly elected officials stop heeding the bribes given to them by the NRA and enact oppressive gun control laws. Remember..... Chuck Heston IS the only president you'll ever need.

[GePap]

Re: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed... with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

Originally posted by Sandman
It's the standard argument of gun-ownership types. Guns should be legal so that tyrannical forms of government can be overthrown if they appear.

What I want to know is, when does it become OK for me, as a hypothetical gun-owning patriot, to turn my weapons on the agents of tyranny? Is there some cut-off point where shooting police or other government employees becomes fighting for freedom, as opposed to simply murder?

GIven that murder is simply defined as unlawful killing, if your revolution wins, you won;t be guilty of anything but fighting for freedom. If it fails, then you will end up in prison or die.

Governments can't be overthrown legaly. Governments can transition legally, but overthrowing is inherently an illegal act. Again, if the person doing the overthrowing wins, well, they will simply declare the previous regime illegal, and that's that.

[BlackCat]

Unless I'm wrong, then revolution is only legal if you win.

For the use of weapon, well, lets say that a third of the population is heavily armed and thinks that the government oppresses their rights, so they choose to use their power despite the other two thirds are quite satisfied. Who wins ?

Well, I think that NRA should be considered a national threat to US and strict gun control implemented.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by BlackCat
Unless I'm wrong, then revolution is only legal if you win.

Anything is legal if you win.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by General Ludd


Anything is legal if you win.

Nah, not quite right - if you win by revolution you make the rules, if you win by election you must abide to some rules.

[General Ludd]

You can "win" an election, but you're still a loser.

[BlackCat]

Oh, if you are talking about rigged elections, well, then you can both win legally and descide the rules - Zimbabwe is probably the worst current example of this.

[chequita guevara]

Re: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed... with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

Originally posted by Sandman
Is there some cut-off point where shooting police or other government employees becomes fighting for freedom, as opposed to simply murder?

If you win, you're a freedom fighter. If you lose, you're a murderer and a terrorist.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by BlackCat
Zimbabwe is probably the worst current example of this.

Not even close. SLORC in Myanmar is the worst example.