Let the Good Times Roll: 1 Million More Americans in Poverty in 2004

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Is Tubes' brother the limit of your research?

Unfortunatley for you, I'd take Mrs. T's life experience about real people and real situations 100 times over yours. Nurses see the worst of the worst, people in desparate situations, on a regular basis. On top of that, she's been through tough times, so has perspective.

I have no idea about your situation but your life experience sounds very limited.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by shawnmmcc
Mrs. Tuberski - you are running into the same problem I ran into with Patroklas, just worse. You have people that talk about the "statistics", those nice numbers and use people without children as their "examples" proving their point.

You and I know what it's like to be worrying what can we skip till next month, or can we kite a check to squeak by till the next paycheck, etc. It's not real to them. It's like the Neocons dismantling the government for their personal tax cuts - all those people who voted for those taxcuts who got nailed by Hurricane Katrina suddenly want a well-funded FEMA.

To them, your problems aren't really an issue until it is their problem. We both know how quickly one change, whether it's a bastard husband abandoning not just his wife but his three children, or a chance spark, can take us from a sort of comfortable mostly middle-class existance to a hand-to-mouth existance. One coworker of mine said it's not until this country really has hard economic times will the voters grow up and start voting intelligently. FYI she grew up poor and black in Mississippi but pulled herself out of that - she had wonderful parents.

I truly feel sorry for people like - damn, I'm drawing a blank on his name, he posted recently, but his mom was a drug addict and he had a really rough time as a kid. Sikander had it tough too. For most people they seem to have trouble understanding poverty is until they've live it - the same with abuse. I suspect that's why FDR was so successful after the Great Depression - that generation knew in their bones that IT COULD HAPPEN TO THEM. Today most people don't believe it anymore.

YEP

It all comes from lack of personal experience. That's the exact thing I'm seeing here, is people arguing from statistics and not experience. I see the people who have had to live through it and/or see someone close to them go through, have a perspective that actually makes practical sense.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Velociryx
And all of this is FANTASTIC!

Everyone has examples of people in specific situations (either above, or below the government's established Poverty Line) either living well, below it, or living poorly, above it.

That's good.

Doesn't change a THING, but that's good.

It proves that we're all individuals, and that this is a big country, and that a national statistic can't cover each and every individual case....and a whole host of other things, besides!

What it DOESN'T do, is change the fact that according to the GOVERNMENT'S OWN DEFINITION of poverty, there are more people living IN poverty now, than there were four years ago.

More people than the normal growth in population can account for.

It's not because of where we are in the business cycle.

It's not because more of "those people" suddenly moved in.

And it's not easy to admit when "your team" screws the pooch.

Is the statistic perfect? Nope.

And there's not a national statistic ANYWHERE that would fare better if you take the number to define the national average and compare it to a real, living, breathing INDIVIDUAL person.

Statistics ARE an abstraction. Abstractions can be used to talk about general trends in a society, but they can, in no real way, be set side by side with a real person and compared.

That's one of the silliest notions I have ever heard.

As an average though, and a general indicator though, it works.

What's happening here, is that we've got a telling statistic that's saying things some people don't want to hear, so now of course, there's a call to change the statistic (and predictably, the proposed changes will make "their side" look better...now THERE'S a surprise!)

But that's not how it works.

Using the current toybox of indicators that measure the health and vitality of this country, one thing is clear.

The number of people living in poverty in this country has increased markedly since the sitting administration took over.

As a general trend, this doesn't say good things about the sitting administration.



-=Vel=-

WORD

Vel once again sums it up perfectly. Is that so hard to understand???

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
Does insurance cover "acts of God" anyway?

Would not insuring against act of God be blasphemous, and invit e the wrath of the almighty?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski
[q]Interestingly enough my next door neighboor (well my parents now) makes less than 15,000 a year as a widower on a pension. She does however own her house free and clear, as well as your 94 Caddy, and is in reasonably good health. Her husband set her up well, (ex Navy, good man) and now she lives a very comfortable life. Is she poor, living in a upper middle class neighborhood?
How freaking often does that happen.

Quite often, (inbcluding in South Central San Antonio) and is a major factor in economic demographics used by land developers like me for determining wealth of neighborhoods and business locations. We look at the siposable income, rather than the gross income.

[Az]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Would not insuring against act of God be blasphemous, and invit e the wrath of the almighty?

Since insurance companies are the minions of Satan anyway, I don't think that this particular blasphemy is their biggest argument with God.

[Lefty Scaevola]

True.....

[chequita guevara]

Oh, Velociryx, why do you hate America?

[MrFun]

bump for Oerdin

[Dinner]

Originally posted by shawnmmcc
Chronic fatal disease if expensive.

Yes, they are. Illness is also the second most common reason for bankruptcy in the US (the most common is divorce). Lott and Delay made sure these people could never declare bankruptcy though and instead would be stuck with debt peonage.

[Mr. Harley]

Mrs. Tuberski - for making the point about underpaid military serviceman and their families. (which I have been arguing in other threads)

Vel - for making every point I wanted to make and more, but much more concisely and succinctly.

Ted - for doing the line by line rebuttals which always drives me to distraction when I try to do it.

And Oerdin, I couldn't remember that damn term - debt peonage - for weeks now and had needed to use it. Did you know that a suggestion was made that maybe we should delay implementing the new bankruptcy law due to Katrina? Idiot Democrats, they should be hammering that message home right now, while they have the chance.

[Mrs. Tuberski]

http://www.msl.org/legislation/2002-2003/r0203/R008-0203.pdf

Here is one link that i have found so far on military familes below the poverty line.. This just for those folks that needed it and didnt believe it
I am sure there are more and if needed ill take the time to find them

[Patroklos]

And if u do research the majority living in poverty are military families.

Mrs. Tub, your source does absolutely nothing to further your original statement.

The only relevant things it provides is…

Soldiers that enter basic training now make a base salary of approximately $11,500

Which is false. Recruits entering boot camp or any derivative thereof in all services make exactly $13712.40. Your source is from 2003, so it has changed a little bit. Not that much though. Then again, a third to half of recruits leave basic as a E-2 or E-3 less than one year, making their base pay at least $17,474.40 a year.

This is important because the only other relevant tidbit from your source is…

The current poverty threshold for the 2002 year, as estimated by the US Department of Health and Human Services, is $15,020 for a family of three…

We have already established the poverty threshold for a family of three is 15,000 according to the poverty line (though you denied this earlier, interesting your only source contradicts you…). So, even the vast majority of people coming out of boot camp overwhelmingly as single teenagers not only are above the poverty line, but above the poverty line for a family of three.

But we are not done yet. Assuming the worst possible situation, an E-1 with a family of three coming out of boot camp, what do we get? We have established a $13,712.40 a year salary, lets look a BAH. If he was stationed in Jacksonville which is the lowest rate I found earlier, hell we will low ball it just in case, he gets $500 a month. That makes a gross of $19,712.40.

Then there is BAS, Basic Allowance for Subsistance, $267.18 a month. Minimum gross salary is now $22,918.56. That is 22 large for an 18 year old with probably nothing more than a high school diploma. If we made this realistic and factored in a $1000 average BAH it is more like 28 large.

But we are not done yet. What if this person is stationed in NYC, or San Fran? Well lets look at COLA (Cost of Living Allowance) which “Compensates for a portion of excess costs for non-housing expenses incurred in areas that exceed costs in an average U.S. military location by more than 8%.” For New York (12%) that is another $264 a month. For San Francisco (10%) its $220.

Now if you happen to work in on a flight deck or airfield then you get $150. If you are in a Hazardous Duty area you get $225 a month. If you pass through a hazardous duty area for at least 1 second of any month, you are exempt from Federal taxes for that month (score ).

And very relevant, since we are talking about families here, is FSA (Family Separation Allowance), or $250 a month.

wouldnt you try to assume that a person in the military doing the same job for 18 years would have had a few raises??

this man has been making this amount for the last 7 years and all the while the cost of living goes up which is what i was saying about the military families living on the poverty line.

I would, and he did, and this more than anything is why I call BS on your friend and example.

This is a link to a the 2005 pay chart at the DFAS site. Feel free to look around, it is not controlled.

DFAS 2005 Pay Chart

Here you will see that assuming your friend did not get any promotion in 18 years he is making at least $1235.10 base pay a month, or with BAS and a ridiculously low BAH $24,027.36 a year. This is an impossible situation however, because if your were an E-1 for 18 years there would be a few thousand people at BUPERS that would be fired. You have four years to promote or they rightly assume you to be a loser and process you out.

You said he has been making the same thing for 7 years so he has had at least one promotion, but in order to make it 18 years he would have to be at least an E-5. E-5 at 18 makes 2450.70 a month. Note E-5s stop getting time in raises at 10 years because if you are still an E-5 at 10 years, or in the case of your friend make E-5 after 11, you are a dead end. So at the very least you friend makes a minimum of 38,614.56 a year.

He is deployed so he is not paying Federal taxes while in theatre, as well as getting Hazardous Duty pay. He is collecting FSA for the same reason. Assuming a normal 6 month deployment, with him being in theatre for 5 of them, that adds up to $2625.00 in allowances this year (all allowances except for COLA are not taxed). I am not going to figure out his taxes for him but it is safe to say he will save a good $3,000-$4,000.

So his speculative gross this year is $41,239.56, plus a very generous tax return.

BUT WAIT. We are not done. Since your friend has in fact had raises in 18 years (at least 13, though some may have been combined into one larger one depending on when he made rate), what about his reenlistment bonuses? Not sure what his specialty is but I would be absolutely amazed if he did not get SOME sort of reenlistment bonus in 18 years, though it is possible.

And as far as the poverty line and the cost of living, the pay scale is readjusted every year and we all get a cost of living raise. Granted it is not always enough to keep up in some parts of the country, but some years it is more (like last year). So your friend has actually gotten 31 raises in 18 years.

Next time your buddy’s wife says she couldn’t afford to bring potato salad to your barbeque, you might want to look at her eyes and see if you can tell what drug she is wacked out on, or see if every piece of clothing on her person has a logo on it because if her kids are playing barefoot in the empty lot and they have a rusted chevy in blocks in their front yard, it is not because they don’t make enough money.

And a last note, they don’t have to pay for health care

[Mrs. Tuberski]

OK i admit the stats are old i didnt put much time into either. My brother in law, not my friend, is not deployed he is stationed in another state. All those extras you mention he isnt recieving. I believe he was an e-5 but ws busted down to an e4 for some reason of his own doing. He is going to retire in 2 years his annual income is no where near as hi as you say. He supports a wife that doesnt work and two kids. And actually the poverty line for 2005 is 14000 some odd dollars and is raised a few thousand more for each dependant. If you factor in due the high divorce rate amongst the folks inthe military especially the navy, The amount of child support you must pay not Oh i am gonna not pay and get away with cause you know as well as i do that in the military you will pay. I think that is the reason he was busted down in rank due to a child support issue but anyway ur figures are grossy inflated due to the no hazzard pay and he isnt deployed. I have seen his income tax and his annual income is no more then 33000 a year to support 4 people in the house and one outside the home. No Remember i didnt say every person in the military are on that line and said some to most that are in a "dead end" as you call them. Hence is impending retirement. Even with that he isnt trained to do much after the military he is a fire controlman Most of them arent trained to do a whole lot out of the navy. Your officers are no were near this equation i understand that but there are a few that are part of the nations poor.

[Mrs. Tuberski]

oH I need to mention due to the base he is at there is no housing availble for them so the have to live off base. Their rent is above the allowance given them. This is the going rates for the apartments in the area. so their housing is not completely covered. No before you jump me and say bs there is always housing this base happens to have a waiting list, that exceeds his time left in the navy.