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Arguing with Stupid Leftists
First . . . Don't say what I know you are going to say! 
So, I'm in the Socialist Party of the United States of America. We're a multitendency party, with views ranging pretty much across the leftist spectrum: from those who support left Democrats to anarchists, and everyone in between (except Stalinists).
I'm also a member of a tendency within the party that seeks to promote more action and less debate for debate's sake. I'm actually a founding member of the tendency, but it quickly became a haven for the Party's anarchists. I'd say good bye, but there are still a good number of Marxists and other revolutionary socialists.
So anyway, the anarchists spout the whole, USA is fascist crap. I'm like, "If the US were fascist, we wouldn't be having this discussion" They're like, no way man. Just cuz it's facsism with a smile and they aren't jailing everyone doesn't mean it isn't fascism. I'm like, no, that's actually pretty much what it means. Then I quote Jon Stewart at them: when you call someone a Hitler, you deman the other person, you demean yourself, and you demean Hitler, who worked damn hard to be the epitomy of evil.
I get this:
Someone else is like, Jon Stewart, right on! Obviously one of the Marxists.
So this is what I get in return.
Socrates and Cicero stand back!
So I wrote this in reply.
So, I'm in the Socialist Party of the United States of America. We're a multitendency party, with views ranging pretty much across the leftist spectrum: from those who support left Democrats to anarchists, and everyone in between (except Stalinists).
I'm also a member of a tendency within the party that seeks to promote more action and less debate for debate's sake. I'm actually a founding member of the tendency, but it quickly became a haven for the Party's anarchists. I'd say good bye, but there are still a good number of Marxists and other revolutionary socialists.
So anyway, the anarchists spout the whole, USA is fascist crap. I'm like, "If the US were fascist, we wouldn't be having this discussion" They're like, no way man. Just cuz it's facsism with a smile and they aren't jailing everyone doesn't mean it isn't fascism. I'm like, no, that's actually pretty much what it means. Then I quote Jon Stewart at them: when you call someone a Hitler, you deman the other person, you demean yourself, and you demean Hitler, who worked damn hard to be the epitomy of evil.
I get this:
they are part of the problem and further more jon stewart is a comedy show so who cares about jon stewart?
not me he didn't bail me out of jail when arrested .
so to play words from the corporate controlled media is insanity!
not me he didn't bail me out of jail when arrested .
so to play words from the corporate controlled media is insanity!
Someone else is like, Jon Stewart, right on! Obviously one of the Marxists.
So this is what I get in return.
TV is the main weapon they use, advertising increases their wealth. the military protects them and their exploitation of the masses, MASTER AND SLAVE STILL EXISTS and only a militant stance can dismantle this genocidal government that kills indiscriminately
Socrates and Cicero stand back!
So I wrote this in reply.
Exactly what point are you making here? How does any of what you wrote prove that the United States is fascist? Let us examine your points in turn.
#1 TV, i.e., the media, is the main weapon they have? Okay, I'll grant you that the ruling class uses ideology to reinforce the status quo and convince people that this is the right and natural order, the best of all worlds. How is this different from religion in feudal and ancient slave societies? Because these societies used ideology to keep their power, were they fascist? Has the whole of human history been nothing but an endless succession of fascist governments? If so, the fascism simply means government, and has no useful meaning.
#2 Advertising increases their wealth. Well, that's true. Advertising's been around for a long time, though, so unless you're willing to assert that the previous two hundred years of history in the West has been nothing but a succession of fascist governments, how does this prove that the United States is fascist?
#3 The military protects them and their exploitation of the masses. See #1
#4 Master and slave still exits. No, I disagree. No one owns me. I can be rented, but I cannot be bought. I have the freedom to quit, choose my mate, live where I want, say what I like, etc. A slave can do none of those things. Wage-slavery is just rhetoric, a inciting phrase. Not an accurate discription of life in capitalism. None of this assumes I have the material means to carry out any of these rights, but I have them.
#5 Only a militant stance can stop this genocidal government, blah, blah, blah. That's true, but that doesn't mean *any* militant stance will stop the government. After all, there militant right-wingers. As well, on the left, there are plenty of militant stances that will not lead to the dismantlement. Take the Sparticists, for example. They are among the most militant standers. I don't really believe that they are going to lead anyone anywhere. Not cuz they're wrong, but cuz they're jerks.
I could be militantly opposed to taking part in capitalism: refuse to work, squat in condmened property, steal food from dumpsters, basically live like an animal instead of a human being. That's not going to lead anywhere, because most people will chose comfortable slavery to impovrished misery.
Or, you could run around calling everything and everyone a fascist. That pretty much combines the flaws of the Sparts with the flaws of the refusniks.
To put it more directly, only an *intelligent* militant stance, which correctly identifies the tasks of the revolutionary movement and the struggles which it faces will have a hope of creating a better future.
So, now I'm going to go eat some meat loaf, which I paid for with my unemployment check from the state as well as my wife's wages from Saks 5th Ave. and go watch the Gilmore Girls on the WB and enjoy myself.
with comradely regards,
chegitz guevara
Sun! Surf! Socialism!
#1 TV, i.e., the media, is the main weapon they have? Okay, I'll grant you that the ruling class uses ideology to reinforce the status quo and convince people that this is the right and natural order, the best of all worlds. How is this different from religion in feudal and ancient slave societies? Because these societies used ideology to keep their power, were they fascist? Has the whole of human history been nothing but an endless succession of fascist governments? If so, the fascism simply means government, and has no useful meaning.
#2 Advertising increases their wealth. Well, that's true. Advertising's been around for a long time, though, so unless you're willing to assert that the previous two hundred years of history in the West has been nothing but a succession of fascist governments, how does this prove that the United States is fascist?
#3 The military protects them and their exploitation of the masses. See #1
#4 Master and slave still exits. No, I disagree. No one owns me. I can be rented, but I cannot be bought. I have the freedom to quit, choose my mate, live where I want, say what I like, etc. A slave can do none of those things. Wage-slavery is just rhetoric, a inciting phrase. Not an accurate discription of life in capitalism. None of this assumes I have the material means to carry out any of these rights, but I have them.
#5 Only a militant stance can stop this genocidal government, blah, blah, blah. That's true, but that doesn't mean *any* militant stance will stop the government. After all, there militant right-wingers. As well, on the left, there are plenty of militant stances that will not lead to the dismantlement. Take the Sparticists, for example. They are among the most militant standers. I don't really believe that they are going to lead anyone anywhere. Not cuz they're wrong, but cuz they're jerks.
I could be militantly opposed to taking part in capitalism: refuse to work, squat in condmened property, steal food from dumpsters, basically live like an animal instead of a human being. That's not going to lead anywhere, because most people will chose comfortable slavery to impovrished misery.
Or, you could run around calling everything and everyone a fascist. That pretty much combines the flaws of the Sparts with the flaws of the refusniks.
To put it more directly, only an *intelligent* militant stance, which correctly identifies the tasks of the revolutionary movement and the struggles which it faces will have a hope of creating a better future.
So, now I'm going to go eat some meat loaf, which I paid for with my unemployment check from the state as well as my wife's wages from Saks 5th Ave. and go watch the Gilmore Girls on the WB and enjoy myself.
with comradely regards,
chegitz guevara
Sun! Surf! Socialism!
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