The Bible-Garden of Eden

[Berzerker]

The Actors:

God - apparent owner or part owner of Paradise known as the Garden of Eden
Adam - man and occupant of Paradise
Eve - woman and occupant of Paradise
Serpent - apparent trespasser in Paradise
Apple - knowledge of Good and Evil

Plot:

God places Apple near Adam and Eve instructing Adam to not touch it. Serpent advises Eve the opposite... She does what the Serpent instructs followed by Adam. God finds out by seeing loincloths on Adam and Eve.

What is the real message here? I once thought Adam and Eve had learned to procreate and God was angry since he later sent the Flood to cleanse the land of all the people who were becoming a nuisance (Babylonian version of the Flood) or corrupt (Genesis).

I still believe the ability and knowledge to procreate upset God, but I'm changing my thinking a bit. The symbolism in this story is very intriguing. If the loincloths represent shame or knowledge of procreation and the proof God needed to know Adam and Eve had attained the knowledge of good and evil, do they also represent humanity's perceived departure from the animal world?

Given the scientific evidence, we know anatomically modern humans appeared roughly 150-200 centuries ago and I expect maybe 50,000 years before that which is an approximate provided by some DNA evidence charting our ancestral "Eve". Why does the Bible describe a "transition" scientifically "known" to have happened 200,000<500,000 years ago?

More peculiarities, what is the nature of this "Serpent" and its relationship to God? If God is as described, how can the Serpent waltz into town and screw up his Paradise? Why does God react to the Serpent's troublemaking with a mere tongue-lashing that is laughable on its face? Cursed to slither about and be stepped on by Eve's progeny? That would suggest the Serpent is an actual snake but doesnt explain the rationale for cursing snakes in general which were created by God and seen as "good". Was this a curse on a bloodline? The Serpent's progeny or followers?

Jesus advised his followers to be wise like the Serpent and gentle like the Dove, strange advice if this Serpent is worthy of condemnation. It went from beguiling - a trickster cursed by God - to a source of wisdom valued by Jesus.

In the more ancient versions from Mesopotamia, the gods found a creature roaming about and "bound" their image onto the creature to create man for the purpose of labor, the Bible echoes this when God asks or instructs his colleagues to make man in God's/their image. If we combine these stories with the scientific evidence, it appears "evolution" was accelerated to create man less than a 1/2 million years ago.

How can a biblical story span eons describing events ~300,000 years ago? How could the biblical authors even know about our departure from nature and implicitly, about evolution?

[Eli]

How can a biblical story span eons describing events ~300,000 years ago? How could the biblical authors even know about our departure from nature

This "Departure from nature" does not have to imply biological evolution. The authors were part of a "civilized" society but they could've been aware of other, very primitive, tribes who in their eyes behaved not unlike animals. From the difference between themselves and these groups they could assume some "departure from nature".

Edit:
Those tribes might've been sexually promiscuous while the authors' society was much more closed about sex. So the loincloths thingie might symbolize not the discovery of sex, but the discovery that sex is an act that has shame attached to it(all the 3 religions that result from the bible treat sex that way). And knowing shame is knowing Good and Evil.

[Az]

Also it may have been an vague reference to the confrontation between the the agricultural sexually-promsicuous canaanites, and the the sexually closed israelites. ( same confrontation that is repeated between Caine the agriculturalist ( canaanite ) and Habel the herdsman (israelite) )

[molly bloom]

Re: The Bible-Garden of Eden

Originally posted by Berzerker

God places Apple near Adam and Eve instructing Adam to not touch it.

Not quite.

The divine horticulturalist tells Adam not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge before he goes to the operating theatre and makes Adamrib into Eve for Adam:

Genesis Chapter 2

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

....

21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

[Berzerker]

Molly, I said God instructed Adam. Eve received the instruction at another time or from Adam. The chronology you cite is irrelevant to the story and my analysis.

Eli

This "Departure from nature" does not have to imply biological evolution. The authors were part of a "civilized" society but they could've been aware of other, very primitive, tribes who in their eyes behaved not unlike animals. From the difference between themselves and these groups they could assume some "departure from nature".

And yet the Bible says the people alive then were descendents of the Ark survivors. Btw, the Israelites weren't advanced compared to many neighbors, they were a hill tribe surrounded by great civilisations. But your point is valid, when advanced peoples meet primitives there is a tendency to see them as more animal-like. But this is about the Garden and man's fall, not the fall of Israelites. The Bible accurately describes an ancient transition from animal to human...

Edit:
Those tribes might've been sexually promiscuous while the authors' society was much more closed about sex. So the loincloths thingie might symbolize not the discovery of sex, but the discovery that sex is an act that has shame attached to it(all the 3 religions that result from the bible treat sex that way). And knowing shame is knowing Good and Evil.

I agree, the loincloth symbolism refers to sex (or procreation) but it has an implied message - the Bible's author(s) knew man's fall was his ascendency from nature and it happened long ago. There is a passage in the Bible where God says his spirit will reside in man for 120 years. But these years are not human years, they are God's years. And according to the Mesopotamians, God's year lasted 3,600 human years. Thats 432,000 years, within the range of the scientific evidence of our "enolution".

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Molly, I said God instructed Adam.

You also said this:

God places Apple near Adam and Eve

So, he (God) didn't, since Eve wasn't around at the time.

So in fact:

The chronology you cite is irrelevant to the story .

isn't the case, since your chronology is in error, placing an Eve near an apple when she was still a rib.

[Sandman]

Apparently, the older the myth, the more likely it is to be true.

[Berzerker]

What does all that have to do with the fact a story places an apple near two people?

You also said this:

And you forgot that before finishing the sentence?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Berzerker

And you forgot that before finishing the sentence?

No, since Eve was not around when God instructed Adam about the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.

Judging from your opening, that is something you forgot.

God places Apple near Adam and Eve instructing Adam to not touch it.

[Berzerker]

Btw, rib may not be the correct translation. These stories in Genesis involve other cultures, the "fathers who served other gods" in Joshua. The early mesopotamian word for rib also meant life force or that which animates. Another potential mis-translation is when Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt. The mesopotamian word for salt also means vapor. A pillar of vapor sounds possible, salt doesn't. The authors of these more ancient stories must have been familiar with these foreign words and their multiple meanings, but lacked the context to employ the correct meaning.

[Berzerker]

No, since Eve was not around when God instructed Adam about the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.

Judging from your opening, that is something you forgot.

I didnt say she was around, I said God instructed Adam. And for the sake of the story, the apple (or tree of knowledge) is placed near both of them (I dont care who arrived first or last). Your literary taste is irrelevant to the story and my analysis. Nit pick elsewhere if thats all you have to contribute

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Berzerker


I didnt say she was around, I said God instructed Adam.

Oh ? I beg to differ.

God places Apple near Adam and Eve

then:

...instructing Adam to not touch it.

That's the sequence from your post, yes ?

You have God instructing Adam in Eve's presence, fruit of the Tree of Knowledge in view.

Hard to do that when she's still a rib.

Your literary taste is irrelevant to the story and my analysis.

I haven't brought it up, nor have I made it a salient point of my observations.

It seems the sequence of events and the placing or appearance of the dramatis personae is irrelevant to your analysis, though...

[Berzerker]

It seems the sequence of events and the placing or appearance of the dramatis personae is irrelevant to your analysis, though...

[molly bloom]

Well I'm glad you think that's a good thing, Berzerker, really I do.

It wouldn't get you very far in showing you'd actually read a text properly, or comprehended it.

[Sandman]

And according to the Mesopotamians, God's year lasted 3,600 human years.

Source, please.