The 10 scariest words in English

[Winston]

Originally posted by Spiffor
BTW, it's amazing to see how right chegitz is, and how low Winston can swoop to protect his little precious idol.

Is there any specific point you want to make, or did you just feeling like being a little personal?

[atawa]

People knowledge?

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Hey! I trolled with the very same Reagan quote here:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=137978&pagenumber=2

I didn't reel Winston in, though. You win.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Winston
Is there any specific point you want to make, or did you just feeling like being a little personal?

Both.
(well, I'm drunk too, which helps on the "not having a point" part )

On the one hand, this "joke" of Reagan has been boasted as gospel by many conservatives since its inception. I commonly hear it whenever somebody suggests a government program to help people (such as welfare programs).

The current catastrophe reminds us how extremely useful government intervention can be, and how terrible consequences of this statement can be, when life-or-death situations are less spectacular.

On the other hand (the personal one), your worship of Reagan is beyond ridiculous. I can understand that you support him generally speaking (even though I disagree). But you aren't just pre-Reagan: you're a worshipper. Not once did I see you say something like "well, it wasn't Reagan's brightest move" or "well, even good leaders can do/say something idiotic from time to time".

You defend the Reagan absolutely each and every time he is attacked by the left, without flinching. It makes you loko like a tool. Reagan is a topic where you completely lose your ability to criticize.

[Winston]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
Hey! I trolled with the very same Reagan quote here:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=137978&pagenumber=2

I didn't reel Winston in, though. You win.

But I take it you didn't try to politcally exploit natural disasters and human tragdy either.

[Winston]

Spiffor,

I have the greatest amount of respect for Reagan, that's true, and it is well-founded IMO. I don't think he was infallible though, but he was a very special kind of political figure, at a very crucial point in our recent political history, even his most ardent critics would agree.

I will stand up for him when I see the need, and in the case of blatant misrepresentations of his speeches or quotes like the one in the opening post, I certainly will chip in, no matter how foolish it's likely to make me appear in the eyes of loony hand-wringing Socialists, such as your good self.

[Flip McWho]

Its a pity that once you become a leading figure in politics all resemblence of a sense of humour must die.

[Winston]

Joke... While it was put, and delivered by the Pres., in a slightly jokingly manner, it was more than that. There's an essential message in it, one that was central to Reagan's way of political thinking.

And if it was just a joke, it wouldn't upset so many of his political opponents even today. Apart of course from those who take it way too literally, or try to misrepresent it into something it was never intended to be.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Winston
I will stand up for him when I see the need, and in the case of blatant misrepresentations of his speeches or quotes like the one in the opening post, I certainly will chip in, no matter how foolish it's likely to make me appear in the eyes of loony hand-wringing Socialists, such as your good self.

You said it...

Personally I am willing to pin the blame on the government for the reasons I outlaid in the other thread, they had a wake up call with Ivan last year and they did sweet FA - now New Orleans is flooded in what should have been a completely avoidable catastrophe!

But hey Winston here would have done the same thing...

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Winston
Joke... While it was put, and delivered by the Pres., in a slightly jokingly manner, it was more than that. There's an essential message in it, one that was central to Reagan's way of political thinking.

And it is precisely what we're criticizing. The Chicago boys. The planned destruction of welfare. The introduction of private economy in plenty of aspects of everyday life that should be public to work properly for the whole population (education, health, etc.)

Yes, his words carried more than a joke. Yes, they carried a policy where the government was "downsized" in order to let the people fend for themselves even for life situations. And yes, his policy created a terrible misery which can still be seen today, for those who look.

There's quite a bit of it in everyday New Orleans. However, nobody would have looked at the city if it wasn't for the natural catastrophe.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

The point is, while it was a joke, it was also a crystallization of Reagan's philosophy. He really did believe that government efforts always made things worse. Go ahead: sift through his 8 years of public utterances as president and find me one instance of him praising government (non-military) actions as positive or even potentially positive. It can't be done.

As with everything else in Reagan's black-and-white world, there were no shades of gray in this issue. Government was always, always the problem, and never the solution. The fact that his own impovershed family benefitted from FDR's New Deal programs made this position not merely idiotic but wilfully so.

And lots of people agreed with him. The whole modern conservative movement was born of that conviction.

That's why, in the wake of disasters such as these, it's so very tempting to exhume his body, hang it in the town square, and beat it with clubs emblazoned with that stupid, stupid "joke." Because he was ridiculously, outrageously wrong -- and yet so convincing in his wrongness as to be dangerous.

[Winston]

That's where you tend to go overboard Spiffor. In my view, welfare should be reserved for those who aren't capable of fending for themselves. And there's no need for government to take up tasks which are solved equally well or better by private enterprise.

Notice the qualifiers trickingly inserted there, now compare with your own representation of the policies you oppose.

[atawa]

Originally posted by Winston
Reagan's way of political thinking.

Learn your lines and make sure you look good on TV?

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Winston
That's where you tend to go overboard Spiffor. In my view, welfare should be reserved for those who aren't capable of fending for themselves. And there's no need for government to take up tasks which are solved equally well or better by private enterprise.

But the problem is that Reagan believed that every (non-military) problem was better solved by the private sector.

Whereas, I suspect many people in New Orleans are about to find out that the scariest words in the English language are really, "I'm from the insurance company."

[Winston]

I think it's ridiculous to say that President Reagan always opposed any action taken by government. He opposed big government as a gospel, as it was being elevated to by the left.

And it's also painfully ignorant to seriously claim that Reagan lived and formulated his thoughts in a black and white manner. Terrible twisting there of his character and person.