The 10 scariest words in English

[DinoDoc]

This debate is kinda pointless as che sees anyone to the right of him politically as Conservative. Regardless of the opinions of the rest of the normal people.

[MosesPresley]

Originally posted by Pekka
Sorry Moses, I think that's more than 10..

Thanks for the 10.

Certainly it's a troll, but the point is valid. New Orleans is now a social petri dish. The strong are setting the rules. This is market politics at it's most basic level. The law interfering in the local situation is a good example of government interference with the freedom of the local markets.

I don't want to go too overboard here with this analogy, but when the US started expanding westward, we looted the Indian lands for all they were worth. The idea of the indian's private property didn't mean d1ck. These looters and I am referring to the luxury item and the weapons looters are simply acting like good capitalists. They are exploiting market weaknesses and acquiring capital.

I think the point stands pretty well. Do we want a government that provides help to the weak and those in need or do we want all public services to be provided by the private sector. When markets are completely free, you get gangsterism with no compassion for the weak.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MosesPresley


Thanks for the 10.

Certainly it's a troll, but the point is valid. New Orleans is now a social petri dish. The strong are setting the rules. This is market politics at it's most basic level. The law interfering in the local situation is a good example of government interference with the freedom of the local markets.

I don't want to go too overboard here with this analogy, but when the US started expanding westward, we looted the Indian lands for all they were worth. The idea of the indian's private property didn't mean d1ck. These looters and I am referring to the luxury item and the weapons looters are simply acting like good capitalists. They are exploiting market weaknesses and acquiring capital.

I think the point stands pretty well. Do we want a government that provides help to the weak and those in need or do we want all public services to be provided by the private sector. When markets are completely free, you get gangsterism with no compassion for the weak.

Adam smith (the 18thc century thinker, not the poly poster) insisted it was govt duty to maintain order, and protect life and property. As did Locke, IIUC. Youre confusing market capitalism and a state of nature.

Which is NOT to defend absolute market capitalism in all its manifestations. But lets criticize it for what it is, not for what it isnt.

[chequita guevara]

Adam smith (the 18thc century thinker, not the poly poster) insisted it was govt duty to maintain order, and protect life and property. As did Locke, IIUC. Youre confusing market capitalism and a state of nature.

You are falling into the libertarian trap of identifying Adam Smithes writings with the definition of capitalism, rather than a description of existing capitalism and his ideas on how to make it work better. MosesPresley is actually correct, what is going on here is the same thing those who became the first capitalists engaged in, theft and piracy. Of course, these people won't accumulate anywhere near enough to start new businesses.

Moses, by 10, Pekka was referring to the title of the thread, "10 scariest words in English."

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
im happy to see that Mr. C. Guevera has joined in support of the utilitarian, liberal state, and is calling for greater investment in infrastructure.

Hey, we socialists are all about utilitarianism and greater investment in infrastructure.

I look forward to seeing him join me in supporting Hillary Clinton. She will need all the help in Florida she can get.

If she gets the nomination, I will vote for her, but only because if she wins every ultra-conservative in this country will have a stroke and die. I wanna see the look on Rush's face when she wins.

[MosesPresley]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Moses, by 10, Pekka was referring to the title of the thread, "10 scariest words in English."

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Adam smith (the 18thc century thinker, not the poly poster) insisted it was govt duty to maintain order, and protect life and property. As did Locke, IIUC. Youre confusing market capitalism and a state of nature.

Which is NOT to defend absolute market capitalism in all its manifestations. But lets criticize it for what it is, not for what it isnt.

"The govenment's duty is to maintain order, and protect life and property."

I can definitely agree with that. Now we have to ask a question. What serves public order better and by extension protects life and private property? Government subsidized social services can be provided without regard to a monetary return on investment.

Privately run social services are largely unprofitable, so there is little incentive for the private sector to provide them. Public transportation is a good example of this. Almost all mass transit must be subsidized by the government.

If you don't provide needed services to the poor, they become embittered and desperate. This leads to disorder such as violent crime, vandalism and riots. Crime and riots kill people and damage property. By providing necessary services, we can maintain order and protect life and property.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Adam smith (the 18thc century thinker, not the poly poster) insisted it was govt duty to maintain order, and protect life and property. As did Locke, IIUC. Youre confusing market capitalism and a state of nature.

You are falling into the libertarian trap of identifying Adam Smithes writings with the definition of capitalism, rather than a description of existing capitalism and his ideas on how to make it work better. MosesPresley is actually correct, what is going on here is the same thing those who became the first capitalists engaged in, theft and piracy. Of course, these people won't accumulate anywhere near enough to start new businesses

What those who became the first capitalists engaged in as their first accumulation, was not necessarily capitalism. Youre identifying capitalism with all exploitation, whereas even Marx would consider capitalism only one form of exploitation.

Market capitalism relies on some security to property, which is why, as Marx documented, capitalism developed along side the centralized state, and not in the conditions of early feudalism. Riot and looting are not conditions associated with security of property.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MosesPresley






"The govenment's duty is to maintain order, and protect life and property."

I can definitely agree with that. Now we have to ask a question. What serves public order better and by extension protects life and private property? Government subsidized social services can be provided without regard to a monetary return on investment.

Privately run social services are largely unprofitable, so there is little incentive for the private sector to provide them. Public transportation is a good example of this. Almost all mass transit must be subsidized by the government.

If you don't provide needed services to the poor, they become embittered and desperate. This leads to disorder such as violent crime, vandalism and riots. Crime and riots kill people and damage property. By providing necessary services, we can maintain order and protect life and property.

I dont necessarily disagree with you that a welfare state, properly managed, is an efficient way to maintain social order, and is in the self interest of property, when that self interest is correctly considered.

What i was taking issue with was this

"This is market politics at it's most basic level. The law interfering in the local situation is a good example of government interference with the freedom of the local markets. "

Govt interference to defend property rights is NOTan example of interference with freedom of local markets. It is the sine qua non for the EXISTENCE of local markets.

A market, by definition, is an institution where items are EXCHANGED. Some exchanges are freer than others, some are fairer than others. But looting is NOT an exchange. And yes, seizing of land from natives is not an exchange either, nor is seizure of goods by some medieval free lance knight who goes on to become a capitalist (though I think CG is confused on the social origins of the first capitalists in West europe)

NOT everything that happens in a capitalist society is a market exchange. Capitalist societies include markets, but they include much else as well.

CG - have you ever read Ferdinand Braudel - hes very good (and a Marxist, of sorts) on some of these distinctions. See Wheels of Commerce from his Material Civilization and Capitalism.

[lord of the mark]

the free market at work:

Posted the Times Picayune Website:

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[chequita guevara]

Nope, haven't read Braudel yet.

BTW, the media is starting to take up some of my criticisms, albeit without the direct attack on conservatism. But they are now saying this was a predicted catastrpphe and asking why the goverment did nothing about it beforehand. They are also noting that the government is refusing to answer.

It's a shame it takes a disaster of this magnitude for the media to actually remember its job.

What floored me though, is the media is actually talking about race & class! Conservative Slate magazine was even the first to raise this issue in the mainstream media.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Nope, haven't read Braudel yet.

BTW, the media is starting to take up some of my criticisms, albeit without the direct attack on conservatism. But they are now saying this was a predicted catastrpphe and asking why the goverment did nothing about it beforehand. They are also noting that the government is refusing to answer.

It's a shame it takes a disaster of this magnitude for the media to actually remember its job.

What floored me though, is the media is actually talking about race & class! Conservative Slate magazine was even the first to raise this issue in the mainstream media.

Slate magazine isnt conservative. It presents a wide range of views - it includes neoliberal Kaus, liberal kinsley, a range of liberals, centrists, and impossible to categorize Hitchens. If youre talking about a US political mag, its best to use US lexicon, or youll confuse people.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Nope, haven't read Braudel yet.

BTW, the media is starting to take up some of my criticisms, albeit without the direct attack on conservatism. But they are now saying this was a predicted catastrpphe and asking why the goverment did nothing about it beforehand. They are also noting that the government is refusing to answer.

It's a shame it takes a disaster of this magnitude for the media to actually remember its job.

What floored me though, is the media is actually talking about race & class! Conservative Slate magazine was even the first to raise this issue in the mainstream media.

the media talks about race all the time - what they tend to miss is class.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Well, as a matter of fact, now that you mention it...

I really don't think you intended that, but it is really funny that you said it.

As a matter of fact what? You would prefer if they said you're going to the Gulags?

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Mao and Stalin are the ultimate extention of Che's and Theban's point of view.

Humans serve society. People are resources, or weeds, to be exploited, or exterminated, as society (the government) sees fit.

Welcome to anti-humanism.

Did you join the back-to-the-Palaeolithic brigade lately? Rejecting the exploitation of people is rejecting civilization.

Heck, you're supposed to be a capitalist. The reason capitalism is better than communism is that it's more efficient at exploiting resources, including people.

I hate it when consies start sounding like eco-hippies. If you have to be evil, why not do it with a modicum of consistency?

[chequita guevara]