US vs Europe Art Rumble, 1945-1965

[MosesPresley]

Originally posted by molly bloom



I think you get Antiques Roadshow on BBC America, don't you ?

Sure do.

Originally posted by molly bloom

http://fp.armitt.plus.com/kurt_schwitters.htm

Originally posted by molly bloom

https://www.artchive.com

I go to that site often.

You probably already know about this site, but here it is anyway. They have nice large high quality jpegs.

http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/

Originally posted by molly bloom

All of my examples, except for the Tom Phillips extract from 'A Humument', are dated from the proscribed twenty year period, so I'm quite pleased.

My last set of examples were directly from the time period. Only a few of my previous ones were. "The Persistance of Memory" started that little trend.

I have a couple of questions for you since you seem to love art. Who do you think are some of the leading artists of the last, say 10 or 15 years?

It seems to me that the art world, especially concerning painting is completely schizophrenic and possibly lost. There hasn't been a significant school of thought to emerge since the 70's. Is painting dead?

Sculpture on the other hand seems to be getting stronger, espeially since sculptors started using fiberglass resins.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by MosesPresley


I have a couple of questions for you since you seem to love art. Who do you think are some of the leading artists of the last, say 10 or 15 years?

It seems to me that the art world, especially concerning painting is completely schizophrenic and possibly lost. There hasn't been a significant school of thought to emerge since the 70's. Is painting dead?

Sculpture on the other hand seems to be getting stronger, espeially since sculptors started using fiberglass resins.

Good question.


Let me ponder awhile, and I'll get back to you tomorrow on that score.


(Briefly- I can't stand much of late 20th Century conceptual art. If I had concepts that embarrassing, I wouldn't share them...)

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by molly bloom

I'm also indebted to this site:

https://www.artchive.com

and of course the Tate Gallery's list of artists, painters and sculptors.

I'm dismayed! I believed you were erudite but instead you're a googler.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by SpencerH


I'm dismayed! I believed you were erudite but instead you're a googler.

Not true. I'm indebted to them only for the jpgs.


Many museums still don't list their piccies properly, or have them posted on the web.

[SpencerH]

Ah, you've restored my faith.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by SpencerH
Ah, you've restored my faith.

Even with the Tate's store of paintings and sculptures there are still copyright problems with some of the holdings, so no images were available.


It's very frustrating, especially with the constraints of the twenty year period L.O.T.M. laid down, and the rules regarding residency- thus Europe from 45-65 gets Hockney, but other Europeans who emigrated earlier we lose out on, and R.B. Kitaj is somewhere in between too, an American who worked partly in the U.K., went back to the U.S., and so on.


That's why I left off Niki de Saint-Phalle for Europe, for instance.


The dates of artists' deaths had to be addressed too- so Schwitters just made it. It's been a thoroughly enjoyable thread for me.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by molly bloom



I hadn't realised fully, until participating in this thread, how in contrast to the U.S. 's explosion of talents in painting, both Abstract, Pop and Neorealist and Minimalist, how strong the Continental Europeans and British were in sculpture, especially in the post-war reconstruction period.
.

I guess i was thinking mainly painting when i started, and mainly NY school Abstract expressionist and Pop and Op. The sculpture does push things back towards Europe. (BTW, has anyone mentioned Calder?)

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by molly bloom



Even with the Tate's store of paintings and sculptures there are still copyright problems with some of the holdings, so no images were available.


It's very frustrating, especially with the constraints of the twenty year period L.O.T.M. laid down, and the rules regarding residency- thus Europe from 45-65 gets Hockney, but other Europeans who emigrated earlier we lose out on, and R.B. Kitaj is somewhere in between too, an American who worked partly in the U.K., went back to the U.S., and so on.

Yes, well, i sort of set it up to give the US the best possible chance

AS for emigres, they are of course central to postwar US high culture. Im trying to think of a rumble that centers on say, social thought and psychology, that would pit just european emigres in the US against some other substantial "team". For kicks, Id like to do just european emigres resident in New York after the war. Hell, Id love to see what the faculty of the New School for Social Research looked like in 1950.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



Yes, well, i sort of set it up to give the US the best possible chance

Don't forget that the C.I.A. and friends (including Nelson Rockefeller, destroyer of Rivera's mural) were backing American Abstract Expressionism:

The style attracted the attention, in the early 1950s, of the CIA. They saw it as a means of promoting the idea that the USA was a haven of free thought and free markets, and also as a means of challenging both the socialist realist styles prevalent in communist nations, and the dominance of the European art markets. The books by Frances Stonor Saunders (The Cultural Cold War - The CIA and the World of Arts and Letters) details how the CIA went about financing and organising the promotion of American abstract expressionists, via the Congress for Cultural Freedom from 1950-1967. Other good books on this subject include "Art in the Cold War" by Christine Lindey, and "Pollock and After" edited by Francis Frascina.

http://www.answers.com/topic/abstract-expressionism

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by MosesPresley

Is painting dead?

Apparently Charles Saatchi thinks not:

The Saatchi Gallery

Current Exhibition

The Triumph of Painting

Part 1:
Martin Kippenberger
Peter Doig
Marlene Dumas
Luc Tuymans
Jörg Immendorff
Hermann Nitsch

Part 2:
July 5th 2005 - October 30th 2005
Albert Oehlen
Thomas Scheibitz
Wilhelm Sasnal
Kai Althoff
Dirk Skreber
Franz Ackermann

Part 3:
November 4th 2005 - February 5th 2006
Matthias Weischer
Eberhard Havekost
Dexter Dalwood
Dana Schutz
Michael Raedecker
Inka Essenhigh

Part 4:
February 10th 2006 - May 7th 2006
Daniel Richter
Stefan Kürten
Lothar Hempel
Jonathan Meese
Andy Collins
Wangechi Mutu
Tal R
Amy Sillman
Ena Swansea
Jules De Balincourt

Part 5:
May 12th 2006 - September 5th 2006
David Thorpe
Cecily Brown
Hernan Bas
Christoph Ruckhäberle
Till Gerhard
Joanne Greenbaum
Lucy McKenzie
Barnaby Furnas
Johannes Wohnseifer
Tilo Baumgartel
Muntean & Rosenblum

Part 6:
September 12th 2006 - April 12th 2007
New Young Artists

http://www.saatchi-gallery.co.uk/gallery/intro.htm

Because of his deep pockets, prestigious gallery space and high public profile, he can affect the careers of modern artists in the same way that the late nineteenth, early twentieth century dealers and connoisseurs did- the Steins, Kahnweiler, and so on:

"The reason why some artists end up hyped everywhere and others ignored has nothing to do with talent, and everything to do with marketing," said Colin Wiggins, an artist and deputy education director at the National Gallery, who will open the exhibition.

The background of some on both sides of the river is surprisingly similar.

Stella Vine was a teenage runaway, and took up painting after jobs including acting, waitressing - and, to tabloid glee, stripping. In the past month she sold two provocatively topical canvases to Saatchi, and her world changed. One was of Princess Diana, and another of a schoolgirl image of Rachel Whitear, the heroin addict found dead; both figures stream blood at the mouth. Vine got £600 each.

Yesterday, yawning from painting all night - an imaginary image of Belle de Jour, the blogger call girl - Vine was content with the bargain, though her pictures bought Saatchi publicity beyond price.

"It was my friend in the gallery who made me put £600 on them, I was going to charge £100. It's better to have attention than not, if you believe in your work."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,11711,1175865,00.html

On the other hand, however much I may question his taste or ability to mainpulate or set the art market, at least he's buying and selling paintings and keeping some artists in work- whether they end up the equivalent of Bouguereau or Tissot or Alfred Munnings, or Edouard Manet or Degas, is another matter:

It is worth saying that he wouldn't matter so much if there were other collectors in this country with as much financial clout as he has. There are many in Europe and the US. Some are extremely serious, collecting in depth and forming coherent collections, while, equally, there are some who make even Saatchi look a model of rectitude. Saatchi buys, he sells, he puts the art he buys - and himself - in the spotlight of the media. He's a self-admitted show-off, more PT Barnum than Svengali. His effect on the British situation is an unavoidable and continuing subject, and one can't ignore the context.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/features/story/0,11710,1175610,00.html

Stella Vine has made a name for herself with some not particularly skillful paintings of dead people, including Diana, Princess of Wales. George Michael has bought her most recent succes de scandale...

Stella Vine's latest Diana:

[MosesPresley]

I like that gallery. They have some very interesting painters displayed there. Thank you for taking the time Molly.

[MosesPresley]

Cy Twombly
Leda & the Swan 1962

[MosesPresley]

Jasper Johns

Painting with Two Balls 1960

[MosesPresley]

Robert Rauschenberg

Retroactive 1964

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by MosesPresley
Robert Rauschenberg

Hey! I own a 'Rauschenberg'- its his 'Speaking in Tongues' construction for the Talking Heads' album of the same name.

Author: Rauschenberg, Robert / Talking Heads Title: SPEAKING IN TONGUES

Description: Sire Records, 1983. RAUSCHENBERG MULTIPLE.

A 33 1/3 speed record in clear vinyl in a plastic container designed by Robert Rauschenberg. Back and front covers of the clear container are printed with Rauschenberg designs. A Rauschenberg designed rotating soft plastic disk is affixed on the outside of the front cover. When rotated it interacts with the record and the other printed designs. All music written by David Byrne and performed by the Talking Heads. A liitle yellowing to plastic packaging and tiny chips. record fine, unused.. Item # J8763 $358.00

http://www.artbooks-ltd.com/artbooks.cgi/J8763.html

Yipes! 358 dollars ! Go to a second hand record shop...