NOT the BLISTERS?! Please God no!

[Pekka]

Spiff, your racism is once again great. And of course you know this corporal. He might be actually very intelligent. He might have more accomplishments than the rest. But you do nothing except say they are bastards with no life, because you can't take any abuse.

Like said, if you can't take any abuse, you don't love your country. Period.

If you oppose the idea of killing a person to defend, then I guess that's fine, but if it's because some big bad wolf.. I mean corporal will huff and puff and it's so so scaaaly.. I mean, you don't love your country. This is it. Here and now. You hate France. I'm sorry they don't do army in letter courses. But I guess the big and dumb corporal would call you poopiepants in those letters, thus it couldn't be done, because it would be too much suffering.

Hater.

[Bereta_Eder]

Well Spiffor the army is not about some dumbass corporal shouting abuse at you. that's called a kapsoni and it's forbidden in the army. like code red if you've seen that movie with what was their names.
the thing is to teach you discipline. but if you're at an age you already learned it then there's no problem. it's when you try to play smartass (so you're imatture) that there is a problem.
i never had any problems in the army.
hell i could buy and read the communist newspaper if i wanted to.
the ofiicers who do the training are specially instracted on that. i have to say i never met a corporal that was a hick from some village trying to lay his complexes out on me.
apart one but i'll be gratefull to him for all my days. but that's a long story. but a good one. a story of life.
anyway if they'll do a kapsoni (or code red as in the movei ) on you you can report them.
during my training only once such a situation occured. some soldiers were doing night petrol and they made them move some large unhumanly heavy canisters from one spot to the other, that's kapsoni or code red as in the movie and the corporals who did it got the boot!
HAIL THE GREEK DEMOCRATIC NAVY!

Although I shudder to think what they did to that poor fool who at morning prayer he raised the flag upside down!!!

[Pekka]

if someone yells at you, makes you do things, you most likely deserve it. IF you didn't deserve it, too bad, life is hard, get used to it.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I'm sorry if I dislike the idea of taking abuse from a dumbass corporal who is how so proud of his great accomplishment in life.

Quite understand you - no corporals here and even the seargents are in trouble, but there are countries that haven't yet figured out how to build efective combat units witout discipline.

Well, I guess that the finns like it rough

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Pekka
Spiff, your racism is once again great. And of course you know this corporal. He might be actually very intelligent. He might have more accomplishments than the rest. But you do nothing except say they are bastards with no life, because you can't take any abuse.

An intelligent corporal wouldn't abuse his power Unless we are having a misunderstanding (as "abus" is a word in French, I might be confusing the English meaning of the word), those who abuse their powers are losers who love to give orders and raise hell for their underlings, while being wholly unable to accept responsibility when they're wrong.
I'd accept the yelling of a good leader. That wouldn't be abuse, as he'd know both his rights and his duties as a leader. I would never accept the abuse of a dumbass who feels superior to me thanks to his stripes.

Like said, if you can't take any abuse, you don't love your country. Period.

If you oppose the idea of killing a person to defend, then I guess that's fine, but if it's because some big bad wolf.. I mean corporal will huff and puff and it's so so scaaaly.. I mean, you don't love your country. This is it. Here and now. You hate France. I'm sorry they don't do army in letter courses. But I guess the big and dumb corporal would call you poopiepants in those letters, thus it couldn't be done, because it would be too much suffering.

Hater.

[Bereta_Eder]

pekka we should drik bottles of white wine then go down to the beach and smoothtalk the girls.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Bereta_Eder
the ofiicers who do the training are specially instracted on that. i have to say i never met a corporal that was a hick from some village trying to lay his complexes out on me.

Well, my opinion about the army might be outdated somewhat

Nevertheless, I would hate spending 10 months doing something which is both useless AND unenjoyable. If I had to spend so much time uselessly, I'd much rather spend it on 'Poly than doing walks on paths I didn't decide by myself.

[Pekka]

hey, that's the best idea I've heard all day.. I'd love to go to beach.. starting to get cold in here, and rains all the time .. no beach for me this year ..

BlackCat, it's not really rough in here. People always exaggarate how rough they had. The truth to be told, I enjoyed all my way. Then again, I'm not like most people.

Spiff, OK.. I don't completely disagree with you. We must just agree what is abusing power. I guess we will disagree on that one. Physical exercize never hurt anyone. It also has lots of logical reasons and benefits why it is done and one of the big reasons is not only for discipline. It's most of all unity. When they realize they are in the same boat with their peers, they get united fast. They get the feeling of what it is, and they will get over it. Together they will get over it. And when that happens, and that happens quite fast, then the most important thing is done. Then it must be embraced, for it is where future fighting morale is derived from, combined with few other things. Even losers can get good working attitude, doing things for nothing, and wanting to do it good, laughing at it and asking for seconds. That's what you want. You don't want no lazy bums who never would do anythign unless someone supervises them 24/7.

And NO you can't intellectually stimulate everyone. So you do it one way that suits most, and everyone else will get aboard or die in pain. Simple.

If a person can't take little '****', that person .. OK that person CAN be very good fighter, but I doubt his mind is fit for it if I have to give you the odds. Because the pressure is somewhat different, like multiply it with infinity. So if little loud talking and boot scrubbing and running and standing naked in the rain makes you go mad, I wouldn't count on that person when it's time to roll. Because that person can't find the power. The power that comes from the unity of his friends and fellow soldiers. Individual like that can't be trusted, UNLESS they have really great skills in some area, that should be used, so they can be individuals fi they want. Others get their ass in the grass.

What I'm saying is, I apologize for the army not being modified for your needs, but they might find them requirements too high. Because it's YOU who belongs there, not the other way around.

You just don't have the luxury of many things if we should ever be so unfortunate to be attacked by Russ.. someone. SO. It's a small price to pay for it. A small price. You don't have to like it all the time. But if you feel it's a worthy cause, you should do it. Your racist stereotype of abusing corporal is nothing but an excuse to avoid your duty to your country. And the future EU. You don't defend me but I defend you? What BS! I WANT MY MONEY BACK!

[Bereta_Eder]

Spiffor I understand your point of view. I had it but had to give it up before I went to the army but I came to blows with my father about that. He was of the opinion that army build character, and I was saying to him exactly what you say.
After having done the army service I will agree with you on one point. The time duration. Luckily now it is reduced in 1 year or even less for some corps. I will not try to say different than you. If my son (when I have him) ever tells me dad the army sucks why do I have to give that time from my life to it, I'll probably tell him what my dad said to me only far less strong. But if you did have to do the army service and if it didn't last long (like a couple of years) but if it lasted only 6 months as it will soon be in Greece, I'd say to him you have things to learn and it'll be a hell of a time you'll remember it for all of your life. So go there and live that experience.

Now thje army services tend to be limited or extinct.

I understand. A young person wants to carry on with his life not wanting to spend time at that. Hell if the greek gov. decides to abolish it all completely, I'll not dispute that. But I'll say it was a hell of experience for those who lived through it and if you asked me would I want it to go through again, I'd say yes.

[Datajack Franit]

pekka we should drik bottles of white wine then go down to the beach and smoothtalk the girls.

Don´t waste wine on women!

[Pekka]

They say army makes a man out of you. But there are always losers who won't be men no matter what happens.

Army is just like any other place. You get what you make from it.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Pekka
You don't defend me but I defend you? What BS! I WANT MY MONEY BACK!

Now now now...
I pay my taxes for the professional army that is doing its job (in France at least) far better than the conscription army of the past.

Professional soldiers, unlike consciripts, aren't average joes thrown in the military often against their wish (like the sheltered kid that mother was talking about). They're voluntaries to do the job, they're well trained, and they are paid for their job.

Your argument is basically that we should all be soldiers for the country for some time of our life. It's a "do-it-yourself" job. I disagree, let me use an example to illustrate it.
It is my firm belief that doctors are extremely important for the country. Yet, should everybody be thrown into a mandatory "medical service" to act as doctor for a few months time? Nope. Good doctors have years of training behind them, and the average joe won't be a good doctor if he only wears the schmock for a few months. Same can be said for a good soldier: it takes time t train a good soldier.

The way I see things is thus: One day I'll find a job for which I have been trained, at which I'll be highly productive. Thus, I'll contribute to the wealth of the country in the most efficient way. Thanks to that, there will be money that goes pay professional doctors and professional soldiers, who'll do their jobs much better than I could.

Everybody wins

[VetLegion]

No nipples, right?

[VetLegion]

[img]http://img.nowthats****edup.com/files/t/h/the_unknown_soldier08_953_711.jpg[/img]

[Pekka]

Spiff, don't get me wrong but I believe in the rule of good leaders being ALWAYS good subordinates. Period. No ifs buts or ands. But good subordinates don't necessarily make a good leader.

You do what you are told to do, so what if it's stupid. You are supposed to do it and not make any trouble. If that's too much to ask, if you start to break it down intellectually, then it's not working. There are million other guys who can also do it. Now how the hell are you going to lead such men? They must do w hat they are told. If it's unlawful, then it must not be done. Otherwise, yes, without asking a question, unless something is not clear. If it threatens your health and is stupid order, then don't do it. If it's just stupid, do it. It's nothing but a game, but that game can save your life later on, because everyone does what they are told without making problems.

Now I know that there are abusive corporals. Abusive officers. Of course. That's life. Are you going to deny your duty to the country because of that? Are you going to step down and say I'm not doing it, because it would make you personally uncomfortable? Our fathers and forefathers didn't get to ask these questions. They didn't have much options. So if you have any decency left in you, you will pay the small price. Unless you have a problem with the army ethically, health wise, or religion wise. It is OK not to go to the army, but if it's because it might be uncomfortable.. it's nothing but an excuse.

Remember. The good will triumph only through the sacrifice made by men of good moral and heart. And that sacrifice is done in a period of time, not just when the bell is rang. Then too, but it is also done way before, and way after. Conflict is only in the middle. How can you miss both ends? How can you afford this.. this I don't know.

Why do I make it to be such a big deal? Why do you make this such a small deal?

Who knows, I know where I stand.

Peace be on to you my lost brother.