Tweet
I've been following the discussion about ID lately.
Simplified the discussion goes like this:
IDer: the cell is to complex to have become what it is through random mutations.
NoDesigner: There's no complexity that can't come through random mutation if there's natural selection and a lot of time.
IDer: Perhaps that counts for single mutations, though the cell is that complex that the entire functionality will be totally gone if one of the parts would be missing.
NoDesigner: All parts could have mutated through different evolution paths where in the end all paths 'come together' and result in the cell as we currently know it.
IDer: But if one of the parts of the cell, as we currently know it, would be different, there wouldn't be a cell at all. So all different parts of the cell must have mutated at the same new incarnation of the cell because all individual mutations wouldn't make sence without the whole.
NoDesigner: Different parts of the cell could have alternative functionalities before they started to do what they currently do. So all single mutations weren't useless since they got a job that did improve the 'old' structure eventhough they didn't do the job they're currently doing and which is totally dependant to the other processes and structures in our current cell.
ie. the current word is: apolyton. Take any of the letters away, and there's no word at all and the entire structure of letters is worthless.
Though take away the y and make the words:
pal
toon
both words make sence, and as soon the 'y' has mutated (ie. from the 'u' which makes sence as a single word agani) all letters can start to form apolyton (not as if that's a good english word though
)
ok, so far I understand the reasoning.
Mostly there the discussion ends. (I'm already impressed if the discussion comes that far since most of the time the AntiDesigners start to flame and insult much earlier in the debate and don't start to reason at all but just refuse to counter any ID-argument, but sometimes a more reasonable AntiIDer comes that far, which is really respected by me:
! You go guys!
Now comes my question:
CyberShy: What makes all parts fall in the right position at the right time? Isn't the change for such a thing not really really small? If not impossible?
I can see how all parts could evoluve apart from each other. But 'falling into the right position' appears to be something that must happen at the same time again.
Perhaps they don't need to mutate at the same incarnation, but they do need to start to perform their needed functionality as a 'joint venture' though.
What makes 'toon' and 'pal' suddenly start to form 'apolyton' together with 'y'?
Even if all functionalities / parts of the cell could mutate at random in seperated processes, the change that all processes would be combined at the perfect right time still appear to be as impossible to me as all processes to mutate at the same incarnation.
Please shine some light for me on this subject!
Oh, and please keep the childish "IDers are pseudo scientists" or "IDers are retarted" or "Creationists are stupid" or "CyberShy you must be a total ignorant stupid monkey" one liners out of here.
I think it's time for rational modern people to stop yelling at the person who comes with the question / theory and start to counter the theories / arguments themselves.
Really, believe me. That yelling is really not better then the roman catholic church did at Galileo in the middle ages: "We refuse to you listen to your arguments, the sun orbits the earth because the bible says so and if think not you're a heathen and we will burn you and cut your head off"
Thanks for rational responses in advance though
CyberShy
Ps. please no cut and paste answers, I've typed out my question as well
Simplified the discussion goes like this:
IDer: the cell is to complex to have become what it is through random mutations.
NoDesigner: There's no complexity that can't come through random mutation if there's natural selection and a lot of time.
IDer: Perhaps that counts for single mutations, though the cell is that complex that the entire functionality will be totally gone if one of the parts would be missing.
NoDesigner: All parts could have mutated through different evolution paths where in the end all paths 'come together' and result in the cell as we currently know it.
IDer: But if one of the parts of the cell, as we currently know it, would be different, there wouldn't be a cell at all. So all different parts of the cell must have mutated at the same new incarnation of the cell because all individual mutations wouldn't make sence without the whole.
NoDesigner: Different parts of the cell could have alternative functionalities before they started to do what they currently do. So all single mutations weren't useless since they got a job that did improve the 'old' structure eventhough they didn't do the job they're currently doing and which is totally dependant to the other processes and structures in our current cell.
ie. the current word is: apolyton. Take any of the letters away, and there's no word at all and the entire structure of letters is worthless.
Though take away the y and make the words:
pal
toon
both words make sence, and as soon the 'y' has mutated (ie. from the 'u' which makes sence as a single word agani) all letters can start to form apolyton (not as if that's a good english word though
)ok, so far I understand the reasoning.
Mostly there the discussion ends. (I'm already impressed if the discussion comes that far since most of the time the AntiDesigners start to flame and insult much earlier in the debate and don't start to reason at all but just refuse to counter any ID-argument, but sometimes a more reasonable AntiIDer comes that far, which is really respected by me
:! You go guys!Now comes my question:
CyberShy: What makes all parts fall in the right position at the right time? Isn't the change for such a thing not really really small? If not impossible?
I can see how all parts could evoluve apart from each other. But 'falling into the right position' appears to be something that must happen at the same time again.
Perhaps they don't need to mutate at the same incarnation, but they do need to start to perform their needed functionality as a 'joint venture' though.
What makes 'toon' and 'pal' suddenly start to form 'apolyton' together with 'y'?
Even if all functionalities / parts of the cell could mutate at random in seperated processes, the change that all processes would be combined at the perfect right time still appear to be as impossible to me as all processes to mutate at the same incarnation.
Please shine some light for me on this subject!
Oh, and please keep the childish "IDers are pseudo scientists" or "IDers are retarted" or "Creationists are stupid" or "CyberShy you must be a total ignorant stupid monkey" one liners out of here.
I think it's time for rational modern people to stop yelling at the person who comes with the question / theory and start to counter the theories / arguments themselves.
Really, believe me. That yelling is really not better then the roman catholic church did at Galileo in the middle ages: "We refuse to you listen to your arguments, the sun orbits the earth because the bible says so and if think not you're a heathen and we will burn you and cut your head off"
Thanks for rational responses in advance though
CyberShy
Ps. please no cut and paste answers, I've typed out my question as well
Comment