Tory leadership frontrunner attacks multiculturalism

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by molly bloom



Well so far in Europe Christians have killed more Christians and Muslims than Muslims have killed Christians.


And I didn't notice the squeaky clean British cultural values keeping the Soho Pub Bomber, Dr. Harold Shipman or the Ulster Freedom Fighters from killing anybody.


Still, it's so easy to condemn multiculturalism when you're being vague about what it actually entails or what you mean by it in any given context. It's become as hackneyed a phrase for the Right wing as 'politically correct' in all its usage and abusage.

Do they mean the 'family values' of traditional Muslim and Sikh and Hindu families, for instance ?

Or the strict Christian upbringings and associated mores of immigrant African and Afro-Caribbean families ?

Or the sense of familial duty inculcated in the Chinese community ?

Integration is good. retaining a distinct sense of identity is compatible with integration, and loyalty to the nation. (er, cough)

Maybe its different in the UK, and its certainly different on the far right here, but I think sane folks are thinking about specific issues now, not overall issues with immigrants.

your post puts me in mind of a cartoon from shortly after 9/11.

Passengers on a plane. One is a swarthly looking man. The rest are glancing at him, becoming agitated, nervous. The flight attendant comes by. "Cerveza, por favor" he says. "oh thank God" another passenger says, as they are all visibly relieved.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by C0ckney


no sadly there are plenty of deluded people like you :/

Deluded because I think people should know better than to believe in fairy tales? I think you need to redefine who has the delusions.

And so you don't consider them to be of equal danger? You consider Moslems to be dangerous then I assume?

[Whaleboy]

Nope, I'm not ashamed in the slightest.

That's alright... we're ashamed to have such an idiot in our midst; more than enough to compensate for your maladjusted sense of pride in yourself .

[C0ckney]

now here's a tough one!

Originally posted by Provost Harrison


Deluded because I think people should know better than to believe in fairy tales? I think you need to redefine who has the delusions.

And so you don't consider them to be of equal danger? You consider Moslems to be dangerous then I assume?

here's a question - members of which religion recently killed more than 50 people in 4 attacks on our capital and then tried to do the self-same thing two weeks later?

and a bonus question, 25% of the members of which religion (according to a yougov survey) sympathise with the motives of the bombers and 6% of the members of the same religion said the bombings were fully justified?

answers on a postcard to 'no really, i'm not just some deluded anti-christian bigot' :/

edit: *tried

[Whaleboy]

C0ckney, constituent parts =| responsible for the sum of all constituent parts.

Therefore, cannot be held representative of it. It means that the terrorism is an issue for Muslims, not of Muslims.

[C0ckney]

the question was which religion is more dangerous, the answer is bleeding obvious.

[Whaleboy]

Depends on your perspective... different times and different places, different religions are more dangerous... there's no inherent higher "danger factor" in any given religion than any others.

I would say however, that religion is generally dangerous but I see no reason to discriminate one fallacy over another.

[Provost Harrison]

Christianity is capable of being manipulated in the same way. It's Bush and his righteous 'crusade' in Iraq (Bush and his cronies always feign Christianity and Christian motives). Tell me, how many people have died in Iraq? Tell me, how many people have died in The Crusades, or the Spanish Conquests of America? And you mean to tell me that Christianity is not capable of these things?

[C0ckney]

that is incredibly weak provost, but then i guess if my position was as hopeless as yours, i'd be clutching at straws and talking about things which happened 100s of years ago too :/

Originally posted by Whaleboy
Depends on your perspective...

indeed. if you have an irrational axe to grind against christians (like ph) or believe in absolute moral relativism or other such BS (like you) then you'll think one thing. if however you look at what's going on around you with a bit of simple common sense, you think the other.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by C0ckney
that is incredibly weak provost, but then i guess if my position was as hopeless as yours, i'd be clutching at straws and talking about things which happened 100s of years ago too :/

IIRC, the Iraq War is still going on right now...the other points demonstrate it's capability.

indeed. if you have an irrational axe to grind against christians (like ph) or believe in absolute moral relativism or other such BS (like you) then you'll think one thing. if however you look at what's going on around you with a bit of simple common sense, you think the other.

Biblebashers lecturing me on irrationality

[Whaleboy]

that is incredibly weak provost, but then i guess if my position was as hopeless as yours, i'd be clutching at straws and talking about things which happened 100s of years ago too :/

If you're going to avoid answering people's questions, at least put some effort into it .

indeed. if you have an irrational axe to grind against christians (like ph) or believe in absolute moral relativism or other such BS (like you) then you'll think one thing. if however you look at what's going on around you with a bit of simple common sense, you think the other.

Actually it's pretty much the other way around these days . Speaking for myself, it's inconsistent of me to attack fundamentalist Islam without attacking fundamentalist Christianity, and as an atheist it is absurd to reserve my venom for Christianity.

I'd hardly think that tarring people with the same brush because it's the obvious thing to do is hardly common sense. Common sense requires thought and consideration, not the latest edition of The Sun and a copy of Mein Kampf translated by a dyslexic clad in burberry .

[Whaleboy]

Biblebashers lecturing me on irrationality

Damn you for getting there before me!

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Christianity is capable of being manipulated in the same way. It's Bush and his righteous 'crusade' in Iraq (Bush and his cronies always feign Christianity and Christian motives). Tell me, how many people have died in Iraq? Tell me, how many people have died in The Crusades, or the Spanish Conquests of America? And you mean to tell me that Christianity is not capable of these things?

Christianity certainly historically was capable of maniupulation to crusades and mass brutality. Certain changes had to take place in it which made christianity safe for democracy. There are certainly muslims, from the US and Britain, to Turkey, to Iraq and Afghanistan, who are trying to move Islam in that same direction. We need to support them in their struggle against those who trying to go back to the worst in Islam - but to pretend that this struggle isnt, at some level about Islam is silly. Its not a war ON Islam, its a war FOR the future of Islam.


And of course Bush doesnt call Iraq a crusade. Hell, the religious group in Iraq most empowered by the US invasion is the Shiite muslims - pretty silly for a crusade, huh?

[lord of the mark]

is everyone here aware that the new US ambassador to Iraq, Zalmay Khalilzad is a (sunni) Muslim?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by C0ckney

indeed. if you have an irrational axe to grind against christians (like ph) or believe in absolute moral relativism or other such BS (like you) then you'll think one thing. if however you look at what's going on around you with a bit of simple common sense, you think the other.

Or, if your memory stretches back further than five years, you'd realise that by your definitions the most dangerous religion up until that time was Christianity.