British Democracy on the slide?

[child of Thor]

this is an old thread at the bbc on a specific issue:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4096194.stm

the update to part of the story involves Mr.Haw who has been protesting for 4 years over Iraq etc. Basicaly what we see is apparantly the first use of british parliamant bills trying to target an individuals right to peacefull protest.

Anyway its since the article was written, been to the high court and they ruled in his favour - as long as he keeps up his protest they can't kick him of his protest patch. So a blow in the right direction for a healthy democracy. But people who after the date this goes through into law, wont be able to join him/do their own peacefull protests.

Still it is disturbing to see our MP's target an individual with their powers WE give them. We need to keep an eye on this kind of thing. Its not going to be easy in the current climate of fear, and it does make things difficult for the security forces i expect, so i can see both sides of the argument.

Still with the PM urging us to go about our business as usual(which we are), i think he needs to look at that message and apply it to himself and his cabinet, especialy when making laws that infringe on our hard won basic freedoms.

In the context of the poll, freespeech is also the right of freedom of expression in a peacefull manner - a cornerstone of any true democracy imho.

[Wernazuma III]

Though I do think that there may be limits for freedom of speech when it comes to inciting violence and hate or promoting a totalitarian society under special circumstances (anti Nazi laws in Germany and Austria, extradition of islamic hate preachers etc.), I still consider free speech to be vital to democracy of course. It's OK though to do something about continuous unauthorized use of loudspeakers (which possibly brings me in conflict with Pekka and Colon again ).

[Saras]

Loudspeakers
H-Blockx

[Zulu Elephant]

Isn't the guy in the article the one who was originallly protesting against sanctions on Iraq?

I think I'll wait for a few more posts to focus my thoughts before giving an opinion though.

[Atahualpa]

Originally posted by Saras
Loudspeakers
H-Blockx

What's got H-Blockx to do with it? I was on an open-air lately where they played.

Still with the PM urging us to go about our business as usual(which we are), i think he needs to look at that message and apply it to himself and his cabinet, especialy when making laws that infringe on our hard won basic freedoms.

Hold still while we throw the rope around your neck!

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Though I do think that there may be limits for freedom of speech when it comes to inciting violence and hate or promoting a totalitarian society under special circumstances
edit......

There is also such a bill going through, where technicaly it would be illegal for me to say for example "I can agree with a suicide bombers actions, where the people he represents has no other means of direct action against a percieved grievance - having no army for themselves, BUT dont condone those actions".

Under such laws that could be seen as incitement and would be illegal for me to have in a discussion, where i might be trying to argue a point against suicide bombing. Thats the problem with such laws.
Anyway i think a better way to go would be to let a series of complete open discussions take place - live on TV prime-time with The PM(and other officials) and some of the extremist guys.

Once you address a concern you can better work out a way to deal with it - making peoples concerns(and discussions of) illegal just pushes it further under the carpet and out of view, thus making it potentaly more dangerous.

I'm under no illusions that you can change the mind of a fundimentalist/extremist by this approach(and by this i include state fundimentalism and Islamic extremism), but the important thing is to get the issues out in the open and being discussed - that way we as a society can better tailor our understanding+responses to such threats.

Democracy has to be free - otherwise the extremist/fundimentalists(state+non state) will have won much of thier war on a free society.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Atahualpa


What's got H-Blockx to do with it? I was on an open-air lately where they played.

They use loudspeakers, non?

[Patroklos]

OMFG THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!

[reds4ever]

Originally posted by Zulu Elephant

I think I'll wait for a few more posts to focus my thoughts before giving an opinion though.

We wait with baited breath.......

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Patroklos
OMFG THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!

And what if it was? You conservatives would be happy to ignore it if solving the problem cost you money/

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Patroklos
OMFG THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!

ah no - you read my 'outrage' level wrong. I was mildly interested in the topic, knowing that in the uk atleast we have various checks and balances on what a government can get away with

I am much more OMFG at the organic thread as i take a longer view on life and the planet is my primary concern - politicians come and go(live+die) relativly quickly, so their lasting legacies can be short lived.

[Starchild]

If politicians vote for a war that has killed many on both sides and put the innocent public, who opposed the war, in danger; the very least that can happen is that they be forced to listen to a few uncomfortable truths by a determined protestor.

MPs and the Government and Parliament really need to be grabbed by the neck and thrown down a few notches. They are there to serve us. Just because a person sits in the House of Commons and looks smug does not make them an authority. My MP is no different from the guy that cuts my lawn because at the end of the day (and too few people realise this), we're the ones in charge of them.

That analogy would work better if I actually had someone who cuts my lawn.

[child of Thor]

Starchild.

and this is of relevence i think:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4744153.stm

now there's a surprise - i think not! We have to keep our public servants under much closer scrutiny than we have been - after all they are doing things in our name that loke like completely changing our society in a frighting direction.

Police state/world of fear - no thank you Mr.Blair+friends

We can do better than that i think and britian(that means us- the public) needs to be braver in the world(rather than following the diplomaticly dead-ended Bush attitude)and set an example for the west instead of playing patsy to a disasterous agenda.

Tony Blair has recently said he will be stepping down at the next election, and getting out of politics all together(rather than sitting on the back benches).

hmmm i wonder if he will take up ranching in texas?

[child of Thor]

found this thread atlast

relevant breaking news:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4133564.stm

I don't mean to sound synical - but i think its more than apparant what voting for people like Tony Blair(and George Bush and the people they represent) leads to.
At the end of the day - having the luxery of a democracy means that we will only have ourselves to blame when our children grow up in police states run by governments with very specific and un-democratic objectives