Alberta: The New Ontario

[Tingkai]

Alberta the new Ontario?

Ontario had 40 years of Progressicve Conservative governments and then a Liberal and then an NDP government.

Alberta has had 34 years of Progressive Conservative governments.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Alberta the new Ontario?

Ontario had 40 years of Progressicve Conservative governments and then a Liberal and then an NDP government.

Alberta has had 34 years of Progressive Conservative governments.

The social credit party predated the conservatives, and were also similarly right-wing...

[Max Webster]

It seems to me that this one of these left-right things. The left screws with capitalism so that majority of Canadians can enjoy moderate fuel prices. Which screws up life for a minority of people. The right says screw the majority. Capitalism comes first and if minority of Canadians enjoy increased wealth than maybe that wealth will spill over to the majority.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Max Webster
It seems to me that this one of these left-right things. The left screws with capitalism so that majority of Canadians can enjoy moderate fuel prices. Which screws up life for a minority of people. The right says screw the majority. Capitalism comes first and if minority of Canadians enjoy increased wealth than maybe that wealth will spill over to the majority.

Did it really help the people out east anyway? They saved some cents per litre, at the expense of nearly destroying and crippling the potentially booming growth of another area of the country?

You would make a great Liberal prime minister with your fine understanding of economics.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

remeber though that oil producing regions always have inflated GDP per capita. As long as Alberta doesnt become a one trick pony and invest only in oil, then they can continue this growth. if all they do is invest in primary products (oil) they will fall into the dutch disease, and when oil prices fall, will have nothing to fall back on.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
remeber though that oil producing regions always have inflated GDP per capita. As long as Alberta doesnt become a one trick pony and invest only in oil, then they can continue this growth. if all they do is invest in primary products (oil) they will fall into the dutch disease, and when oil prices fall, will have nothing to fall back on.

That's why Klein is upping spending on things like post-secondary education. They also provided huge funding for IT in the late 90s through today, with the "ACCESS" program that built new buildings, labs, recruited industry leaders, etc. to Alberta universities.

[Tingkai]

A few things Ontario has that Alberta does't

- real cities, as oppose to big sprawling suburbs with no real downtown
- A dozen or so major universities, compared to maybe two in Alberta
- Nearly four times as many people
- an auto industry
- A film industry
- A shipping industry (canoes don't count)
- Diverse political representation
- Asher

[Lawrence of Arabia]

That's why Klein is upping spending on things like post-secondary education. They also provided huge funding for IT in the late 90s through today, with the "ACCESS" program that built new buildings, labs, recruited industry leaders, etc. to Alberta universities.

post secondary education has very little returns to society. the returns are almost all to the individual, who can then take that education and move elswhere where the jobs are. only in rare cases (like Stanford/UC Berkeley and Silicon Valley) or other such world class research universities will there be spinoffs in the area. However, if the only jobs available in the area are in the primary sector, people will say 'thank you very much' and move elswhere.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Max Webster
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program. Funny Flubber says the oils sands are going to triple their production in 2015. So seems to me that their is plenty left to go around. So the stripping part seems far fetched.
Now where can I find information about the effects of the NEP on the Albertan economy.

The oil sands were not considered economic for many many years and it has been within the last 10 years that many previously uneconomic projects have become economic due to better technologies (and more recently better prices. )

There is still "plenty" of oil in Alberta but the majority is in the oilsands and the conventional forms of production are declining. Twenty years ago people did not know if or when there would be significant oilsands production. Even with oilsands coming on stream, my understanding is that this will usually just replace the anticipated losses in conventional production. I'd have to research the actual numbers.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Tingkai
A few things Ontario has that Alberta does't

- real cities, as oppose to big sprawling suburbs with no real downtown
-

Is this a positive or negative. If Toronto is your idea of a real city, I hope never to live in one

Originally posted by Tingkai
- A dozen or so major universities, compared to maybe two in Alberta

Function of population-- Uof C and U of A are the biggies but there are lots of smaller and specialized universities for those that want different programs

Originally posted by Tingkai
- Nearly four times as many people
- an auto industry
- A film industry
-

So what-- Alberta has oil and ranching and 4 times FEWER people

Originally posted by Tingkai
- A shipping industry (canoes don't count)

I do miss the ocean

Originally posted by Tingkai - Diverse political representation

I miss rotating governments to prevent corruption but Ontario seems to have forgotten that idea federally

Originally posted by Tingkai

- Asher

Keep him

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
A few things Ontario has that Alberta does't

- real cities, as oppose to big sprawling suburbs with no real downtown

You can't find downtown in Calgary...?

- A dozen or so major universities, compared to maybe two in Alberta
- Nearly four times as many people

Both of these are closely related. There's talk of adding additional universities as well, Mount Royal College is trying to get to be an accredited university in Calgary as well. The UoC already has 28,000 undergrads and really can't take anymore, but the population keeps expanding...

- an auto industry

Which was artificially created due to politics with the auto pact. It could exist anywhere with political incentive like Ontario got.

- A film industry

There's a film industry in Alberta as well...

- A shipping industry (canoes don't count)

Why did you even list this?

- Diverse political representation

Related to population size again.

- Asher

I'm moving back to Calgary. Driving west August 27th.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Asher


Related to population size again.

Sorry Asher but there is more political diversity in pretty much EVERY Canadian province regardless of population size. It seems most other provinces will at a minimum try to rotate the governing party every few years

[Asher]

Originally posted by Flubber
Sorry Asher but there is more political diversity in pretty much EVERY Canadian province regardless of population size. It seems most other provinces will at a minimum try to rotate the governing party every few years

As Alberta's population expands its politics are becoming more diverse.

Look at the 2004 election results...the Liberals got like 220% more seats, NDP seats doubled...

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Max Webster
Just what did happen with our goverment and Alberta. What are this details of this NEP that Albertans loathe.

It's very complicated, but the short course...

The killer was a well head tax on energy production, and the attitude that accompanied it.

When being planned, the wise people in Ottawa had no concept that oil prices could go back down after the oil shocks of the 70's.

Just after the NEP was introduced, a combination of factors caused the world price of oil to crash. Alberta's oil has always been on the expensive side to extract. Add the tax on production to a low world price and our oil became very unattractive. Add a nationalising, business unfriendly federal government, and investment in Canada became very unattractive. Combine the two and activity in the oil patch came to a screeching halt.

The majority of jobs (direct economic benefit to the economy and people) are in drilling, exploration, and oil sands development. Shut down the rigs and oil sands development, and you shut down the oil boom.

The NEP and the attitude behind it shut down the rigs and oil sands development.

And is it true that Quebec and Ontario screwed Alberta?

Amidst the devastation it was obvious to anyone with more than half a brain that the NEP contributed greatly to what amounted to a depression in Alberta. Appeals were made to the Federal government to repeal the NEP, or at least the well head tax. Those appeals were ignored by the federal Liberals.

Ontario and Quebec did not screw us, but what we perceive to have been 'your government' did, and they did it in an arrogant and at times down right insulting manner. People who lived through it are still angry about it. Their children are angry about it. Their grandchildren will be aware of it, and probably not happy about it.

Imagine a federal tax on auto production on a set dollar per unit produced basis and how that would play in Ontario. Combine that National Auto Policy with a downturn in the international economy and a resulting depression in Southern Ontario and tell me how popular Ottawa (and the people who put the government in Ottawa) would be.

Personally I think Alberta should share in its wealth with the rest of Canada. I think every province should do this. But not to the detriment of the province sharing.

We do, and not many serious people have a problem with it. We pay a lot of federal tax that is spent in other parts of the country. No problems with it, since it is just that the wealthy pay more to help those who are not as well off.

The problem was when the feds invented taxes that attacked the heart of our economy.

If Ottawa was unfair towards Alberta than I truly feel for Alberta.

Thank you. It is nice to hear an acknowledgement, even if it is just one person.

Originally posted by Max Webster
Why do Albertans have such a pickle up their butt over Quebec. I know they are an annoying whiny bunch that just want to be different for the sake of being different. But their is got to be more to it.

By and large we don't have a 'pickle up [our] butt over Quebec' any more than people in other parts of the country would to seeing the Canadian flag trampled.

If there is a peculiar Alberta take on Quebec, it would be the view from a net contributor, and survivor of the NEP , being somewhat bemused by the prospect of a net receiver making noises about how bad they have it and threatening to leave periodically.

The more politically aware would no doubt be in on the secret of power that unshackled us from the NEP. The West and Quebec assured Mulroney a solid majority. The NEP was repealed. A little later we repeated the feat and we got free trade. Some people are actually aware that the interests of a federal Quebec and Alberta are often the same.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
If Albertan blizzards are the same kind of lameass affairs that Americans call blizzards, they're a good opportunity for a walk in the park with grandma.

Only if you wanna be dead.