Killer Mice Gang Up On Sea Birds

[Geronimo]

dp

[Barinthus]

Originally posted by Geronimo


Do not delude yourself. resources are voraciously consumed by all other living things.

If you ever find a mice's garbage can as filled as a human's, let me know

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Geronimo
Retarded? sufficient intelligence would preclude such an argument? In which case it is easily refuted in a way that would satisfy all intelligent observers?

Because attaching moral imperatives to purely aesthetic (used loosely) values, particularly when we're talking about whether it's a bird (of which we have plenty) or a mouse that we kill off, is inane. Morality should be based on effect, which in this case is zero.

Think of it in terms of keeping our options open. We have far more options with a living species than we do with an extinct species.

Not really in this case. It's a bird. Whoop-de-do. OTOH, this is actually interesting behavior on the part of the mice. Let 'em do their work.

For the record what are your feelings on the Talibans campaign to destroy ancient works of art because they held that images of living things are idols? Are you cavalier about the destruction of anything regardless of whether it's replacable or not?

Human artifacts are slightly more likely to be useful/interesting than some random albatrosses.

[Solly]

"And why is that? Is not man part of nature as well?"

Well if man removes the mice that is still a natural act, isn't it?

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
I'm sorry, but there's no possible harm from losing a species of Albatross that lives on an isolated island.

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
I don't mean in the sense of a classical tragedy, but what sort of story do you find really heart-wrenching?

I think I'm kind of twisted in this, as people dying doesn't really make a story tragic to me (in general; there are a few exceptions to this rule). Rather, the stories that are really painful to me are those in which some piece of information is lost, forever, even if this isn't the focus of the author...

For information (unique, irretrievable data), substitute species of albatross (unique, irretrievable data). It is exactly the same thing, and its loss should be tragic regardless of the practical "uses" of another albatross species. The kind of attitude which is willing to sacrifice an albatross becomes one which is willing to sacrifice any number of obscure and "useless" species, and Earth will be the worse off for it.
Read Asimov's story 2430AD for a truly heart-wrenching tragedy in that vein.

[OzzyKP]

Yes, but these mice aren't threatening the Albatross with extinction. They have plenty of other nesting areas unaffected by mutant, bird-eating super-mice.

[Immortal Wombat]

Funnily enough, they don't. [link]

For example, the Tristan Albatross is of particular concern because it is now extinct at its original breeding ground on Tristan da Cunha, and Gough Island is home to some 99.8% of the remaining population.

"The Tristan Albatross is at risk anyway because of long-line fishing, and it's doubly at risk because of the mice," responds Cuthbert.

[...]

The one advantage that albatrosses and petrels have is that they are very long-lived, Cuthbert adds.

"It's a big, big conservation concern, but in the next five years or so - probably nothing will go extinct as a direct result of the mice, I would imagine."

If the present generation can't breed, they will go extinct. Not soon, but they will.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
What chain reaction? It's an extremely remote, isolated island!

Albatrosses are not noted for being sedentary. They range very, very far and do stuff there.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
For information (unique, irretrievable data), substitute species of albatross (unique, irretrievable data). It is exactly the same thing, and its loss should be tragic regardless of the practical "uses" of another albatross species. The kind of attitude which is willing to sacrifice an albatross becomes one which is willing to sacrifice any number of obscure and "useless" species, and Earth will be the worse off for it.
Read Asimov's story 2430AD for a truly heart-wrenching tragedy in that vein.

Touche on the quote, but I didn't say I based my morality on it. That's an emotional response.

Re: slippery slope, that's absurd. It's a case of willing to sacrifice an obscure, useless (no quotes), completely isolated, and not particularly distinctive (an albatross is an albatross is an albatross) species.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by St Leo

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
What chain reaction? It's an extremely remote, isolated island!

Albatrosses are not noted for being sedentary. They range very, very far and do stuff there.

If so, then they aren't threatened.

[Eli]

I saw the movie. Bunch of mice are eating it and this stupid bird does what? Blinks? Ponders the meaning of life?

Are they tasty? Maybe we should enjoy them a bit before the mice kill them off.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Eli
I saw the movie. Bunch of mice are eating it and this stupid bird does what? Blinks? Ponders the meaning of life?

Are they tasty? Maybe we should enjoy them a bit before the mice kill them off.

Reminds me of the cow from the restaurant at the end of the universe.

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Touche on the quote, but I didn't say I based my morality on it. That's an emotional response.

When humanity isn't directly affected either way, it's not a moral issue. The Philosophical Biologist in me holds that diversity should be preserved for its own sake - as examples of Life's abundant variety - unless there are pressing practical reasons for doing otherwise. Which there are not.

Re: slippery slope, that's absurd. It's a case of willing to sacrifice an obscure, useless (no quotes), completely isolated, and not particularly distinctive (an albatross is an albatross is an albatross) species.

It's complete isolation makes it all the more scientifically interesting. You know about allopatric speciation surely? Isolation is where interesting things happen and where the interesting things which happen are simple enough to study. The Tristan/Gough island group is practically the only one in a temperate climate zone which has not been affected by introduced predatory or grazing species. Personally, I quite like the idea of not allowing unique habitats to be destroyed.

Because if the albatross goes, the mice will start feeding on other birds and eggs - they already take Atlantic petrels. The endemic flightless rail will probably be next to go extinct, but that's ok, because they're isolated and not distinctive either. And then the other birds on the island are all common, so it doesn't matter if they're wiped out by supermice - and oops, we've let this pristine island habitat become a rock full of rodents.

How many islands do we let go the same way? All of them? Are no albatross species worth keeping...? Penguins...? Whales...?

[Kuciwalker]

It's complete isolation makes it all the more scientifically interesting. You know about allopatric speciation surely? Isolation is where interesting things happen and where the interesting things which happen are simple enough to study. The Tristan/Gough island group is practically the only one in a temperate climate zone which has not been affected by introduced predatory or grazing species. Personally, I quite like the idea of not allowing unique habitats to be destroyed.

This is an interesting thing happening - a beautiful chance to observe learning behavior

[Immortal Wombat]

Pah. Psychology is bunk. Animal psychology doubly so. And, I might add, bunk which could quite easily be done in a lab.