just. plain. STUPID.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

By the way, I find it ironic that I'm arguing largely with two gay men about the need to accept people for who they are.

Only in America...

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by Spiffor
As somebody who lives in a country whose language he doesn't master, I fully agree with Boris et al. As I was looking for jobs, because of my language skills, pretty much every job in direct contact with the customer was barred to me. It's not good business if you don't understand what is told to you, or if the customer doesn't figure out what you mean.

I was stuck either with jobs that were related with the languages I speak better (French and English), or with menial jobs. And to me, it's perfectly normal.

If these students are so deeply in Ebonics that they have trouble studying in proper English, then the school is their last opportunity to be exposed to English. If their school speaks in Ebonics, they'll definitely lose touch with proper English. And they'll definitely lose touch with pretty much every job that requires to be fluent in the language (and in our economies based on the service sector, these jobs are many)

Standard English and Ebonics versus French and German are apples and oranges.

[Drake Tungsten]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
And furthermore, no law firm, at least, will EVER hire someone who learned Ebonics instead of English, because the nuances of the language are important in arguing for one legal principle over another. You close Ebonics speakers to the law and you think that'll do them good?

Anything that deters the production of more lawyers seems like a good idea to me...

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Here's the un-Ebonics school class of 1880 photo:



Part of a proud legacy.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Theben
People can talk however they want; not my concern. However the public school system is supposed to be educating young people in order for them to get good jobs in addition to a well-rounding of knowledge. Why teach something that will HURT their chances of getting a job? Which it will.

Word

[JimmyCracksCorn]

I don't think anyone actually read the linked article in the OP. It says that:

"We are affirming and recognizing Ebonics through supplemental reading books (for students).'

No one ever suggested eliminating standard English from the curriculum, just an adding of Ebonics to give these kids some pride in who they are, and re-enforcing local culture - something everyone should have.

Haha, no one actually read the OP, did they? Now you all look like a bunch of racists.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

But Kaak, et al. You guys are right.

Teaching black kids about their culture and language, and that its OK to be black, is just. plain. stupid.

[Theben]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn

Basically guys, this is how it works. Ebonics speakers are perfectly well understood by speakers of standard English. So if communication isn't the issue, then whats the problem? The problem is simple, Ebonics speakers are black. If you think its any more complicated than this you're fooling yourself.

No, you're fooling yourself. If I need someone to communicate with the clientele and I have a choice between someone who can be understood and someone who can't, who do you think I'll choose? I don't care if they're white, black, red, brown, orange, whatever. I'll look at how friendly they are, how motivated they seem, and whether or not they have the skills to perform the task. Now either the person cannot speak decent enough English to be understood, in which case I won't hire them (the exception would be Spanish as I can speak enough to get by, and there's usually someone around who can speak it well enough to communicate thru them), or they can speak English well enough to be understood, in which case there's no reason for special classes!

Keep in mind that this is for an entry level job. A little more than minimum wage.

To speak with an "urban" accent (for lack of a better term) will not bar someone from a good job. However, "fro shizzle ma drizzle" won't impress any HR dept I've known. The 1st can be understood and DOESN'T need it's own language class.

[mactbone]

Most schools do have courses on black culture and history. To insist that a class on black english be taught as you are suggesting would be an insult if they really are speaking english.

The real solution would be to hire teachers that can communicate to the kids in their own dialect/sociolect/whatever. I'm sure southern schools hire teacher teachers with similar accents to their population, schools with large spanish speaking enrollment hire bi-lingual teachers, etc. It doesn't make any sense to inundate these students with any dialect by specifically teaching them that dialect.

If this is all about the culture and history then don't disguise it by claiming Ebonics is necessary for a segment of the populace.

[Kontiki]

How can Ebonics be both perfectly understandable and acceptable to any English speaker and yet be so different that it requires special classes and/or reading material?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
Here's the un-Ebonics school class of 1880 photo:

Given the fact that Black English/ebonics apparently has it's roots in the parts of Britian from which white Southerners (the people who likely owned the group in your picture) came from I fail to see how it is somehow protective of Black identity to have it tought in any capacity in the school system.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Kontiki
How can Ebonics be both perfectly understandable and acceptable to any English speaker and yet be so different that it requires special classes and/or reading material?

This was going to be my next point. Obviously it is different enough from standard English that it needs special classes. Furthermore, why don't you ask someone from deep Appalachia (with that accent) would find it easy to get service jobs in cosmopolitan cities. I doubt it.

I mean has Jimmy ever dialed a help line? You want someone who speaks clearly because there may be phrases or jargon that you just don't understand, and need in depth explinations of.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

So you're saying this is a good thing?

Why... yes. Am I going to expect you railing over the wearing of suits in the business setting next? After all, it is stifling creativity of American sub-cultures!

Fight the Powa!

I'll sign onto that. T-shirts and shorts only.

Especially in the summer. I don't know how people survive in suits in the summer. Too fricken hot. When we get an office no one is gonna be expected to wear a suit. Or even a tie.

Unless we are meeting someone important or something. But otherwise, come as you are.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by OzzyKP

I don't know how people survive in suits in the summer. Too fricken hot. When we get an office no one is gonna be expected to wear a suit. Or even a tie.

The tie is the biggie - traps the heat in.

Unless we are meeting someone important or something. But otherwise, come as you are.

This is the rule in our office. Shorts and T-shirt today, suit tomorrow.

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn


So you're saying this is a good thing? You prove my point quite nicely

Of course we should all spend money teaching people how to learn a 'second language' to communicate with these ebonics-speakers. Of course we should cater to them. Of course we should let their preferences dictate American life.

Or instead we could not waste our tax dollars and expect the bare minimum- that everyone in the nation can be expected to understand each other.