Rugby - Hands Off White!

[finbar]

Originally posted by ravagon


Don't know what the plot of this yet-to-be-written novel might be but I'm guessing from the last sentence that, were I seeking it in a library, I might find it next to something from somebody named Grimm?

Or even Ripley.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak


Six losses in a row – it’s all being set up nicely for them to beat England this Saturday? And with the team turnip has picked they probably will.

They could. They will, as ever, lift against the Old Enemy. Whether it's high enough is another matter.

Smithy is not a malicious player – I suspect he was thrown by being asked to play number 8 (whatever else he is – he is not a number 8!).

He's done pretty well there since Lyons was injured. Not the traditional #8 by any means. It lets them pick a taller flanker, another lineout jumper. Of course, it relies on the taller flanker also doing the job Smith did, which is an ask.

One thing turnip has done Finbar is name a hugely powerful front row. Sherdian-Thompson-Vickery is some unit. They are banking on Sherdian to counter Hayman the following week. The ABs are catching everyone out at the moment by having a truly world class front rower.

Bast*rds! I wonder whether Eddie will be tempted to play David Fitter. He's a big, very strong tight head who has been thwarted by injury in the past. Apparently he did well in the France Barbarians game. Big difference between that and a Test against England, but the incumbents continue to let the team down.

I think Tana is delusional in saying that Wales can defend the 6N too – a lot depends on the likes of Jenkins, R. Jones and especially Shanklin being fit but even then a full strength England pack is going to make it hard for them at HQ.

As is M. Owen delusional this morning. Wales are evenly matched with the ABs? Has he had a knock on the head recently?

Have you seen the England side for next weekend Finbar? Turnip played it conservative and named his beloved bath second rows so the Wallabies have a great chance of disrupting our line out.

It looks to me like a fairly uninspiring, plodding England team, typical of the coach's thinking. Outside of the front rows, I'd've thought the Wallabies' skill levels superior. The problem is getting hold of the ball. Who knows with the line outs? Apparently the Wallabies disrupted the French line out often enough, but then couldn't hang onto their own throws.

Tindall and Noon at centre is also mainly muscle and not much flair.

Tuquiri, if he starts at outside centre, should leave both of them for dead. If he sees the ball.

There is a Kiwi on our bench!!!

Um. We noticed.

[Havak]

Have I mentioned it before then?

I have to agree that the quotes I saw from Michael Owen this morning are impressively delusional. It’s particularly ironic as his own performance was one of the bigger let downs for me.

"We are evenly matched with the All Blacks but if you are not quite on your game, they are the best in the world at taking opportunities,We weren't out-muscled but failed to attack well. You can't defend all game. We've seen the video and there were opportunities we didn't take. Now we've got three more games to get it right."

I didn’t see equals myself – I saw a side better in every aspect of play and then I also saw a few red shirts going backwards.

I’m intrigued by the opportunities he discusses – I didn’t see Wales mount one decent move in the second half. They were comprehensively stuffed – perhaps it might be better to accept that and move on instead of smoking the happy pipe?

Whether it's high enough is another matter.

Fingers crossed it will not be enough.

Smith at 8 gives a very different dynamic – it’s a very physical (and rather big) back row he will be facing at twickers. Intriguing.

Big difference between that and a Test against England, but the incumbents continue to let the team down.

I can only re-iterate that the front row we have selected is hugely powerful – the most powerful since the RWC certainly. Try the lad I say.

I think you have a fair point – it is Wallaby skills versus English power. There are some specific areas where I would disagree with you about relative skills. Certainly Lewsey matches Rogers at FB. The Bath locks might be poor to me but I donlt rate them lower in skills than the Aussie locks – I saw your lineout in the tri-nations and the Bath boys can match that (Deacon off the bench gives England the edge for me). Corry and Moody are better than their opposite numbers (George aint a conventional 8 – Martin beats him as a ball carrier)

So I would counter your point by saying I think we cream the power and edge the skill in the forwards – and the Wallabies cream the skill behind the pack (excepting Lewsey) whilst again England edge the power.

I notice that Gregan drew some heavy criticism for Saturday too?

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
I think you have a fair point – it is Wallaby skills versus English power. There are some specific areas where I would disagree with you about relative skills. Certainly Lewsey matches Rogers at FB.

Sorry. I think Lewsey can be very fine at best. Rogers, at best, has magic. Comparing Chris Latham - more often at FB - and Lewsey at best, I'd have them on a par. Rogers started on the wing against the French, I think, and moved to #10.

The Bath locks might be poor to me but I donlt rate them lower in skills than the Aussie locks – I saw your lineout in the tri-nations and the Bath boys can match that (Deacon off the bench gives England the edge for me). Corry and Moody are better than their opposite numbers (George aint a conventional 8 – Martin beats him as a ball carrier)

Locks are probably on a par. England could select better, and, thanks to injury, we're stuck with what we have. Chisolm is a novice and Sharpe is an under-achiever. Moody is better than Elsom, but Elsom is also a novice. Corry would outplay Smith in conventional #8 terms. He's better equipped for the job.

So I would counter your point by saying I think we cream the power and edge the skill in the forwards – and the Wallabies cream the skill behind the pack (excepting Lewsey) whilst again England edge the power.

Agreed, except for my point, above, re Matt Rogers, and I disagree about the power in the backlines. Still, it doesn't matter how much skill you have in a backline if they don't get the ball in any useable fashion. Witness the last half a dozen Tests.

I notice that Gregan drew some heavy criticism for Saturday too?

But of course. It's a national pastime. I ask again - could anyone else do any better if the pack is going backwards? The only reason to replace him would be to bring Henjak into the equation, to give him an extended opportunity to show his worth for the future. George's back up on the bench is Chris Whitaker, talented, arguably a better passer of the ball than George, but roughly the same age as George. Where's the long term benefit in replacing George with Chris? Besides, George is the current team's only leader.

[child of Thor]

Ref the wales vs NZ, it was a really awful game to watch - the worst i've seen in a while. After 20mins at 3-6 it was partially disbelief at the scoreline that kept we watching. From the outset Wales were under huge pressure and never looked like winning - it was all they could do to defend.

And then the weird bit for me was in the second half, when NZ seemed to let a completely defeated and turned over wales of the hook(ok they scored a few tries) by playing about as disjointed as i've ever seen a NZ side play. The score flattered wales i felt - it could have easily been another 20-30 points if NZ had played as ruthlessly as they do normaly.

Not a good game at all imho and i was kinda looking forward to it.

EDIT: oh and that post match chat with the man of the match and the new zealand captain almost made me hang myself in shame! what were she thinking with those inane "well even though you won you have to give credit for the way wales played"(to Umanga who looked to struggle for the diplomatic 'yeah they are a great team wales' answer). It was like the organisers faced with a moslty silent stadium for 80% of the match, due to the awful game, were trying to be as disolusional as Michael Owens quotes Havak mentioned. Ouch it was embarassing that bit at the end

Still i'm eager for the Ireland vs NZ game next week - hopefully the Irish will play with a bit more(O'Driscol induced) fire in thier bellies.

[ravagon]

Incidentally CoT did you end up getting a copy of Space Rangers 2 afterall?
I'm having a blast. It's a really amazing multi-genre patchwork quilt that takes bits'n'pieces from a multitude of old-school games. By all rights it just shouldn't work, but somehow it all comes together very nicely.

I keep starting it up after work, intending to play for an hour or so and then notice my clock saying 0100.

[Havak]

Personally I have got Civ4 but just cannot bring myself to play it yet in case it proves as disappointing to me as Civ 3 did. Dangerously on topic?

It seems to be a week for delusion as Hodgson is claiming he can keep Wilko out of the setup – and George Smith is claiming the Wallabies are now too mature to ‘sledge’ Charlie Hodgson again this year. The latter point is patently ridiculous!

Rogers is a fine player Finbar – I simply haven’t caught the magic that you say steps him above Josh yet.

I would like your thoughts on Deacon if you do get to see any of the action.

and I disagree about the power in the backlines

That is a fair point – I had missed what he was having to field on this tour:

Latham, Sailor, Tuqiri, Turinui, Rogers, Giteau,

There is some beef there all right – particularly in the centres. Mind you I now have to disagree on the skills side – Wendell brings your average down below ours on his own.

I tell you what would worry me as a Wallaby supporter - Dunning, Cannon, Baxter. I think these boys have got to step up massively against the old enemy to get you in the game.

Is Cannon fit after Pelous tried to cave his face in?

I ask again - could anyone else do any better if the pack is going backwards?

But in modern sport such minor things as the above question do not prevent scape goating.

by playing about as disjointed as I've ever seen a NZ side play.

I don’t like to keep picking on Wales CoT (well I do but that’s a different story) but from early in the second half NZ were playing an exhibition game. Wales were getting little possession – and not threatening at all with what they did get. NZ had them contained and the match wrapped up – and they knew it.

oh and that post match chat with the man of the match and the new zealand captain almost made me hang myself in shame!

Why should you do so? Wales never stopped trying – they simply didn’t have a team capable of troubling that superb AB outfit. I’m afraid the talk of testing the ABs was just that – talk. I’ve tried to point out that worthy GS winners as they were it was a poor tournament and Wales are not suddenly world beaters because of it. Add to this some key absences – they really miss Peel, Gethin Jenkins, Ryan Jones and Shanklin in my opinion – and they were on a hiding to nothing.

The hair bears and the hooker from Gloucester are weak links for you as well unfortunately. They could hide this with Jenkins there and against the weakened English front row in Feb – but the French and English front rows look very strong right now (assuming the French hooker doesn’t get banned through the 6N – in theory he should be!). Unusually of course this AB squad has a fair set of forwards – it’s giving them a better platform than they have had for years.

That chat was embarrassing due to the interviewer – “we are here to have a word with the winning skipper and man of the match – but first let me say how wonderful the red shirted crowd is, you and your team were marvellous today”. Wuh? Huh? Been smoking something I wonder?

Still i'm eager for the Ireland vs NZ game next week - hopefully the Irish will play with a bit more(O'Driscol induced) fire in thier bellies.

Oh dear – I have to put my negative hat back on. Ireland have some key absences (O’Connell, BOD) and a lot of green young players in the mix. I just can’t see stop them stopping the ABs.

To be honest I can’t see anyone stopping the ABs on this tour – England have a slight chance perhaps, but only if our forwards can outdo them in the contact area. McCaw pulling a Hammy in Dublin would be handy (and the Samoans suddenly proving inelligible to keep pretending to be kiwis).

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
George Smith is claiming the Wallabies are now too mature to ‘sledge’ Charlie Hodgson again this year. The latter point is patently ridiculous!

April Fool's Day comes 6 months early.

Rogers is a fine player Finbar – I simply haven’t caught the magic that you say steps him above Josh yet.

I have. Many times. Ball in hand, he can leave them grabbing thin air. Sort of like J. Robinson once did, only Rogers always knows what he's doing and where he's going. You'll just have to trust me on this one.

I would like your thoughts on Deacon if you do get to see any of the action.

I won't get to see it! Although it appears young Queensland Reds lock Hugh McMeniman will debut in place of Chisolm. He's the one who famously asked Eddie to be dropped from the Wallaby squad so he could go away and work on his body strength. He did, now he's back bigger and stronger. Showed lots of promise in his bare year in S12. A big ask on debut, but it's his big chance. If he starts, watch him for me?

That is a fair point – I had missed what he was having to field on this tour:

Latham, Sailor, Tuqiri, Turinui, Rogers, Giteau,

There is some beef there all right – particularly in the centres. Mind you I now have to disagree on the skills side – Wendell brings your average down below ours on his own.

You're right! Delete him, insert Drew Mitchell and the average soars again. And if you want to increase the Wallaby backline muscle, insert Lloyd Johansson into the centres. Massive man, young, very quick, great skills. Hopefully he'll be on the bench, at least.

I tell you what would worry me as a Wallaby supporter - Dunning, Cannon, Baxter. I think these boys have got to step up massively against the old enemy to get you in the game.

As always! The novice front row that did well against the French Barbs is worth a try. They couldn't do any worse.

Is Cannon fit after Pelous tried to cave his face in?

No idea. But his spot has to be under question anyway. Apparently he handled appallingly. There are two young hookers waiting in the wings. One of them did well against the Barbs. I suppose it depends how many novices Eddie is willing to risk.

But in modern sport such minor things as the above question do not prevent scape goating.

True. Still, at least his critics are pushing for youth - Henjak or Giteau. Mmmmm. I have a funny niggling feeling that George might be missing this week.

Oh, and it was interesting to see the ABs - and Tana, in particular - warmly welcomed in Ireland. None of the crass booing of Cardiff. Speaks volumes for the Paddys. God love 'em.

[child of Thor]

@Ravagon - ref SpaceRangers2, not yet - but it does sound like a game i would enjoy, so its on the get list(as is Civ4).

@Havak,

i found a thread for you

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/international/4414216.stm

He has humility - saint orange one soon?

And ref your points about the invincible AB's - you are right, it will be very difficult for anyone to stop them i suspect, still it doesn't stop me from wishing it would be the next team they play. I dont want them(the AB's) to get too big for thier boots and come unstuck in the next world cup(again)

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Havak

Oh dear – I have to put my negative hat back on. Ireland have some key absences (O’Connell, BOD) and a lot of green young players in the mix. I just can’t see stop them stopping the ABs.

Reading the AB starting lineup for the Ireland game, it looks as though they've switched basically everybody.
It may cost them their 'Grand Slam' tour but it looks as though all of the players will be getting a run.

I'll ignore the usual Havakisms ...

Originally posted by finbar
Still, at least his critics are pushing for youth - Henjak or Giteau. Mmmmm. I have a funny niggling feeling that George might be missing this week.

I got the impression that some of the critics have been pushing just a bit too hard. That can create a dig-in-against-all-odds attitude which would end up putting even more pressure on under-performing players.

I'm not sure that the large-scale changes that've been proposed in many corners would be such a good idea either - not inasmuch as far as they're not needed - they are - but more to the effect that, were immediate results not forthcoming, they could well revert back to the original core again.
Absolute worst case would be if the up-and-comers lost a game or two, lost confidence, lost their places and then the current crop of Wallabies began winning again.
That wouldn't bode well for the WC at all.

It looks as though some circles are putting the 'favourites' mantle on England for the upcoming clash ... hmmm ...


The Welsh may be in for a bit of a shock too if they're taking Fiji lightly enough to release large numbers of their club players ...

[Havak]

Just a quick note on that - the FRENCH clubs will not release their welsh players for the Fiji game so Thomas and Jones have had to return to France. It isn't Wales treating Fiji lightly so much as club interest taking precedent.

It's symptomatic of one way in which the NH trails the SH still - NZ are not daft enough to play important club games on the same weekend as tests let alone the same day. On Saturday half an hour after England kick off Tigers kick off against Gloucester. It's madness and does neither club nor country any good at all.

I have no idea what you mean about Havakisms by the way.

If we are talking of taking opponents lightly of course then fifteen changes to the line up is normally an indicator of that?

And lets hope both Mealamu and Ail Williams play rugby eh? The latter has a worse record than Grewcock!

Different note entirely - I like the attitude shown here:

"We got ourselves in a position to win the game but we let it slip, and it hurts like hell."

Thats Cozza talking about how the two late Giteau penalties won the game at twickers last year.

[ravagon]

I forsee something rather odd about the upcoming England-Australia game.

Havak wants to get rid of one coach A. Robinson so part of him won't be wanting England to do too well, to prevent any glossing-over on that issue, whereas finbar will need to be hoping that the Wallabies don't do too well either (assuming that they play with a pretty much unchanged lineup) to pressure some of the much-needed changes there.

Will this have ever happened before?


I'll have to take your word (might have to borrow some NH salt though as there isn't enough of it in the SH alone ) for Williams prior conduct as I've (still) never seen one of those infamous matches where he (allegedly) spits the dummy and goes rogue. The (admittedly) few times I've seen him play he hasn't been penalised or cited at all AFAIK.
I did notice though that the other main trangressor, one Mr T. Flavell, is now happily at home in the ZP however?

And I think I already mentioned a reason for the lineup changes when I posted about the lineup changes.
You may've missed that bit.

[Havak]

Nope - just thought it interesting you would (albeit gently) imply the Welsh were remiss for something totally outside of their control (losing key players to French and English club sides was suggesting they were taking the Fijians lightly?) when the NZ side has chosen to make wholesale changes for ‘squad rotation’ purposes. Were I Irish I would be desperate to make the ABs pay for this – which seems to be essentially saying “we are saving our best for England”?

Wales nominated the Fiji game as the one that IRB player release regulations would not apply to (you only get three such games per autumn).

There is no way Finbar wants the Wallabies to lose – and it’s only a small part of me that would see the positive in England doing so.

Troy Flavell? The man who almost blinded Richard Hill and perhaps the most dangerous rugby player not yet permanently banned from the game? Where did you get the impression he plays in the ZP? Apart from an appearance is that silly Lomu-Jonno challenge game Troy isn’t with any English or UK club side – he was playing in Bokland but has actually just resigned for Auckland Blues for next year. Blues will therefore have Williams and Flavell and presumably therefore be lucky to ever have two locks on the pitch?

As for Ali Williams – give me back that salt as I am in the right. If you can’t remember as far back as this seasons S12 and his six week ban for standing on Richie McCaws head then I can’t really help you realise that Ali has a history of standing on peoples heads or giving them sly dinks and getting banned for it. He also infamously stood on Josh Lewseys head in June 2003 and got cleared by an independent citing panel (where 2/3 panel members were Kiwis – interesting idea of independent? Taken advice from our PM on that one perhaps!) Maybe you should google his name and ‘ban’? Whilst you are at it google ‘Simon Shaw’ and ‘cancelled red cards issued by Aussie referees that were incorrectly applauded as correct at the time by certain Apolyton Kiwis’.

Finbar – I’ll keep an eye out for McMeniman if he features. I have to watch the game ‘as live’ on tape when I get home from Tigers. Better stay sober.

[finbar]

Originally posted by ravagon
whereas finbar will need to be hoping that the Wallabies don't do too well either (assuming that they play with a pretty much unchanged lineup) to pressure some of the much-needed changes there.

You've been at the roba!

As it happens, there appear - at the time of writing - to be a number of changes. New wingers - Gerard and Mitchell - in place of Wendell, dropped, and Matty Rogers who moves to 10 in place of Giteau. Wendell I can understand, Giteau I can't. Apparently he was swamped by the French, but he remains an immensely gifted young player who can make defences look stupid. I know Rogers was v. impressive at 10 in one of the Tri-Nations matches, but I would have kept Giteau at 12 where he has been v. successful with Larkham at 10. I suspect Havak will be pleased to see Giteau on the bench. Gerard and Mitchell aren't as beefy as either Wendell or either of the English lorries (sorry, wingers) but they're exceedingly quick and skilled. Apart from that, it seems Roe replaces Elsom on the side of the scrum, and McMeniman for Chisolm at lock. Roe lacks Elsom's size but has more experience and never gives up. The great pity is that the front row apprently remains intact.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Troy Flavell?

Seriously psychotic.

As for Ali Williams –

A strange one. It's only in the last couple of years that he's taken to doing the stupid things you detail. (Yes, ravagon, Ali has committed some terrible sins) I saw quite a lot of him in S12 before he made the ABs and there was next to nothing to complain about. I wonder whether, having made it to the ABs, he thought it necessary to add aggro - read stupidity - to his game. Still, D. ("Excuse me while I reach my size 22 over the ruck and try to stove in a Taffy's skull") Grewcock makes him look like an angel.

Finbar – I’ll keep an eye out for McMeniman if he features. I have to watch the game ‘as live’ on tape when I get home from Tigers. Better stay sober.

Beter stay sober? Mmmmm. Okay, just in case you don't, which is London to a brick on, Mr McMeniman is a lock. A lock is one of the big, tall chaps who bend over a lot right behind the three short fat guys with numbers 1, 2 and 3 on their backs.