Rugby - Hands Off White!

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
I'm in at 8am every morning. I would normally have a coffee and chill before posting though.

Gee, I'm hardly ever up before 8 these days. I wait till the Tuscan sun stirs me through the bedroom window. The dogs, of course, are already awake and keen to go out for their walk. But they know to keep their heads down till I'm ready.

A (very) few of the England team might pip their Aussie counterparts to a World XV right now. Just possibly.

On form displayed against lesser sides, perhaps. Not on form displayed in this series. Flintoff would most definitely be in. Not that there are many about, but he's the best all-rounder in the world by a mile.

Have you heard of Paul Franze at all Finbar? The Exiles have signed him from Aussie RL side Penrith.

Never heard of him. Then again, I could probably only name half a dozen players in the entire Australian L***** competition.

[Havak]

*studiously avoids jealousy over Tuscan sun rises*

But they know to keep their heads down till I'm ready.

Now why does that sound like a lesson they learned the hard way?

Not on form displayed in this series

Pietersen? Highest batting average by a country mile in the series so far. And as much as it might pain you with the clear exception of McGrath the Aussies seamers might all have to give way to their England counterparts. Harmison and Jones are not finding consitency but Gillepsie is well out of form, Lee has had one good session and the late replacement Kaprowicz – well is he a bowler at all in actual fact as there has been little evidence of it?

The contest between skipper is being edged by Ponting simply because I think he has more of a clue in the field so far. Warne and Gilchrist are shoe ins. The rest is a lottery really.

Could all change today of course.

Never heard of him.

Fair enough. I knew it was an off chance.

I enjoyed laughing at Graham Henry and Richie McCaw claiming rustiness was a factor last weekend. Fourth test in under two months is rustiness eh? What is even funnier is I suspect the kiwi boys might even defend them on it!

[ravagon]

Mais oui, bien sur.

Its been a while since they had any quality competition afterall ...

Nuts. That little dig is all I have time for unfortunately.
The nice thing about Japanese clients in-house is that they're unfalteringly polite.
The not so nice thing is that they actually want me to do things besides posting here, for some reason ...

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by ravagon
edit.....

The not so nice thing is that they actually want me to do things besides posting here, for some reason ...

the mind truely boggles! I've read their comics

[Havak]

A points win to Ravagon.

Shame about the work.

Finbar must be listening to the cricket thinking "the collpase must happen soon". And he might well be right.

[finbar]

When the oppo skipper reaches 150+ (or whatever he made) with the help of dropped catches in addition to having had his castle comprehensively uprooted by a no-ball, one can only shrug.

[Havak]

Thats true - a shocking perfomance in the field from the Aussie by their high standards. Lee made some dents late on though and 400 will simply not be enough so it's still game on.

Mind you if the Aussies top order collapses again I think it is time to start thinking of asking Ponting some hard questions?

Okay you will think this is bait though I am quite serious - do you think the tri-nations would be more exciting if it adopted a 6N model where you face the challenge of rotating home and away fixtures (it would probably require expanding and letting in Argentina/P. islanders)?

Frankly it is rather boring when the sides win their home games and take the title on points. Unless anyone can argue last seasons tournament was a classic (and equally so if it is decided the same way this year)?

Generally the winner of the 6N has to have performed on the road somewhere to win the tournament - consider the Grand Slam in 2003 where England beat Wales in Cardiff and a rampant Ireland in Dublin, or the Wales Slam just gone where they took out France in Paris. Exceptions prove the rule of course - France's slam in 2004 only required an away win against a rebuilding Wales who were not a force at the time.

It just adds a bit of spice to a tournament for me if you remove that home fixture safety net.

[LDiCesare]

Naturally I disagree with you about the scrum - only UK sides know how this set piece should work properly and England are the purest practitioners of this cunning art of course.

Naturally, I disagree too. Only latins know what a real scrum is. Argentinans are not that bad, but a bit iited as they tend to rely only on pure strength. But then many of them play in the French championship, where they learn the most arcane arts of the mélée. We called that 'la soule' long before the Brits thought of writing down laws. (For those who don't know, the Soule is the same as rugby but without laws - just put a ball in the middle of the village, have each half of the village try to bring it to the other end of the town and behold).

[finbar]

Reminds me of the dinner table at home.

Oh, and I'm burning my Australian passport. Crap cricket team, crap rugby team. I'm taking out Italian citizenship. They don't even try to play cricket. Or rugby for that matter.

[ravagon]

Yes, the Italians play soccer.

Originally posted by Havak
Okay you will think this is bait though I am quite serious - do you think the tri-nations would be more exciting if it adopted a 6N model where you face the challenge of rotating home and away fixtures (it would probably require expanding and letting in Argentina/P. islanders)?

Frankly it is rather boring when the sides win their home games and take the title on points. Unless anyone can argue last seasons tournament was a classic (and equally so if it is decided the same way this year)?

I'm not sure that the absence of your 'safety net' home games would really prove anything to be honest. Afterall, if England had away games against, for example, France and Ireland and lost them both, while winning their others, whereas France had all of their tough games at home and away games against Italy and Scotland, hence ended up winning the 6N, would you still consider it a 'fair' contest?
Perhaps 'balanced' would be a better term ...

Additionally, if the PI's were to be included there is also the matter of gate takings to take into account. Crowds in NZ/Aus/RSA/Arg shouldn't be a problem but the SH second string teams come from much lower populated areas, unlike in the NH's Scotland/Italy.
That said though I would be much in favour of including those other nations in an expanded competition of some sort.

Originally posted by LDiCesare
We called that 'la soule' long before the Brits thought of writing down laws. (For those who don't know, the Soule is the same as rugby but without laws - just put a ball in the middle of the village, have each half of the village try to bring it to the other end of the town and behold).

Sounds like a game they used to play in South Africa before they had laws over there. I think they might've called it rugby.


[Edit: Update on Dan Carter. BBC is reporting that he's out for 3 months with something broken. ]

[LDiCesare]

Sounds like a game they used to play in South Africa before they had laws over there. I think they might've called it rugby.

[finbar]

Originally posted by ravagon
Yes, the Italians play soccer.




I'm not sure that the absence of your 'safety net' home games would really prove anything to be honest. Afterall, if England had away games against, for example, France and Ireland and lost them both, while winning their others, whereas France had all of their tough games at home and away games against Italy and Scotland, hence ended up winning the 6N, would you still consider it a 'fair' contest?
Perhaps 'balanced' would be a better term ...

Additionally, if the PI's were to be included there is also the matter of gate takings to take into account. Crowds in NZ/Aus/RSA/Arg shouldn't be a problem but the SH second string teams come from much lower populated areas, unlike in the NH's Scotland/Italy.
That said though I would be much in favour of including those other nations in an expanded competition of some sort.




Sounds like a game they used to play in South Africa before they had laws over there. I think they might've called it rugby.


[Edit: Update on Dan Carter. BBC is reporting that he's out for 3 months with something broken. ]

Bone in his leg. And soft tissue damage.

[Havak]

the Soule is the same as rugby but without laws

There are plenty of examples of the same thing in our history – there is still a place where they have an annual game of this but the place name escapes me for now.

Oh, and I'm burning my Australian passport

Still? What an escape. I cannot remember any other time when an Aussie team needed a huge slice of good fortune against England – nor any other time when they celebrated a draw so wildly. Advantage back to the Aussies perhaps – but they simply are not playing like the number one team in the world right now so an England win at Trent Bridge would not surprise me as much as it might have after Lords.

Perhaps 'balanced' would be a better term ...

You don’t have to disagree with me for the sake of it you know.

I agree balanced is a better term – but then again I do not remember using the word ‘fair’ anyway. You described the circumstances of the French Slam in 2004 to a tee – all the hard games were at home. That’s the luck of the draw – but it does make for ‘excitement’ certainly. Wales went to Paris needing to win and win well this year – they couldn’t rely on a return fixture in Cardiff where their record might be much better.

Additionally, if the PI's were to be included there is also the matter of gate takings to take into account

It is a very reasonable point. Is it really an argument for blocking the development of the Pacific Islanders though? Perhaps the RFU would allow Twickers to be used at the PI’s home ground – although perhaps more practically there are large enough stadiums in Japan to host them. Bottom line is the world game needs developing – England are touring North America every June with an A side because of an agreement with the IRB for this very purpose. The Pacific Islanders series last year was for the self same reason – and we need to find more ways of helping such teams develop.

I simply don’t see any way in the longer term that the tri-nations will be allowed to remain a closed shop. I strongly suspect that within a few years it will see Argentina included at the very least – and if it does grow the two game format may have to change by necessity?

It is worth bearing in mind for 6N gates that Stadio Flaminio though only holds 30000 or so and that half are generally travelling fans. Ditto Murrayfield – it might hold over 60000 but Scots are seldom in the majority when England or Wales come to town. Find the right location for the PI’s to play and the gates will happen when they face the Aussie, Boks and Kiwis (in some ways London would be a great venue for such gate throughput – al the Commonwealth ex pats and then the poms flocking to see the islanders take scalps).

Bone in his leg. And soft tissue damage.

Bad news. Pretty much takes him out the autumn tour I suspect?

Great game last weekend by the way – the Aussies looked like they were doing a job but the All Blacks were patient and juts a little bit too good for the Aussie youngsters in the final reckoning.

And the Wallabies are going to remain in trouble as long as Dunning is in the squad. Dunning an international front row? I don’t think so – lack of depth is finally finding the Aussies out here?

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Still? What an escape. I cannot remember any other time when an Aussie team needed a huge slice of good fortune against England – nor any other time when they celebrated a draw so wildly. Advantage back to the Aussies perhaps – but they simply are not playing like the number one team in the world right now so an England win at Trent Bridge would not surprise me as much as it might have after Lords.

The Australians are batting and fielding badly; bowling, on the whole, quite well, though Gillespie has, unfortunately, been a liability. It's been interesting observing all the hysteria in both the English and Australian press. The reality is that the Australians are underperforming in two vital areas, while England probably can't do a lot better with the team they have. Yet it's a tied series, England were smashed in the first Test and won the second very narrowly. The third Test? The reality is that roughly half of England's first innings runs were gifted. Vaughan and Trescothick, who contributed 225+ to the total, both should have been out - Vaughan a number of times - with roughly 200 fewer runs on the board. The weather saved Australia? Dropped catches and a no ball saved England's first innings from relative medicority. Yes, bad fielding is bad cricket and all that, but there are realities and there are appearances.

I have no idea whether the Australians can lift their game. If Ponting has any say, they might. But after the hysteria associated with this Test - the crowd, the media, et al - I shudder to think what will happen if Australia goes on to win the series. I don't know whether the crowds and the media will settle for "Well, we gave them a fight".

I simply don’t see any way in the longer term that the tri-nations will be allowed to remain a closed shop. I strongly suspect that within a few years it will see Argentina included at the very least – and if it does grow the two game format may have to change by necessity?

Whether the T-N remains a closed shop is just about entirely up to the broadcast rights holder. Regardless of what any or all of the rugby controlling bodies want, if the rights holder won't come at it, it won't happen. If there were more than one potential rights holder in the marketplace, it might be a different matter.

Bad news. Pretty much takes him out the autumn tour I suspect?

Yep.

Great game last weekend by the way – the Aussies looked like they were doing a job but the All Blacks were patient and juts a little bit too good for the Aussie youngsters in the final reckoning.

And the Wallabies are going to remain in trouble as long as Dunning is in the squad. Dunning an international front row? I don’t think so – lack of depth is finally finding the Aussies out here?

Eddie likes Dunning. I've seen him do good work in S12 but I simply haven't seen him at Test level. And, as you know, lack of depth has been finding out the Wallaby front row for the last five or so years. They survive on cunning.

Eddie is struggling to field a team for this week against the Boks. No Mortlock, no Latham, no Paul, question marks over Rogers, Flatley, Turinui. Tuquiri could finish up in the centres. I'm not sure who the third-choice #10 is, but if Flatley isn't right, whomever it is will get to face the Boks.

[Havak]

Yes, bad fielding is bad cricket and all that, but there are realities and there are appearances.

And for all that energetic and largely accurate defence the reality is that this is not as good an Australian side as five years ago and that it is not currently playing well.

They may return to form at trent bridge but who knows? I think you over rate the bowling – McGrath has been excellent, as has Warne. But the support bowling has been poor (one innings from Lee aside) – poorer than Englands certainly. And if we have to talk about gifts there were enough dropped catches and missed throws that Australia should have lost by tea on the final day.

I’m not convinced you can write off good innings saying it was because the Aussies dropped catches – that is almost a universal truth after all? And bowling someone with a ‘no ball’ is a ‘no ball’ and not a wicket.

I don't know whether the crowds and the media will settle for "Well, we gave them a fight".

What Hysteria? Everyone here is just happy that the Aussies are not storming away with it in the way they claimed before and after the first test. Combine that with a huge pervading sense of relief that England have managed to be competitive in the last two tests.

Did we touch on the fact that whilst your boys claiming five nil slams (thanks Glen – mind that ankle now son shine) might be seen as realistic in a success-glutted Oz it is simply seen as uber-arrogant here and turns everyone strongly against them? Perhaps this is their motivational tactic?

If anyone is getting carried away however that is their problem – I’m certainly not with them. The Aussies remain the best side in the world when on song so I am just enjoying them showing that they are occasionally human for once.

That said the UK cricket watching public, like the rest of the cricket world, would love to see the Aussies lose the series. This is a normal POV when playing the number 1 in any sport – and mandatory when England play Australia at anything. Plus everyone else wants the Aussies to lose at cricket – you occupy the role in cricket that England do in rugby – others love to see you fail.

Whether the T-N remains a closed shop is just about entirely up to the broadcast rights holder

And when that rights holder has expressed disappointment with the viewing figures things tend to change?

Though god knows how they expected huge audiences from the combined pops of the three countries involved. Perhaps they honestly thought that 8am and 10am kick offs would find an NH audience as well (note: UK bars currently need a special licence for this time – but that changes in November)?

Eddie is struggling to field a team for this week against the Boks

He has also offered his resignation I see. Was he serious?

What bother me with Dunning is I think he lacks the cunning so necessary for the Wallaby front row. I suspect Bulldog would beat him in an IQ test.

I see Flatley has made it.

Wasn’t he a great referee last weekend by the way – star ref of the tournament so far without a doubt? There is just something wonderful about seeing Wallabies and Kiwis b******** in a Somerset accent.