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Originally posted by Spiffor
If the Yanks had been the only ones with nukes, I really believe they'd have declared war to the evil empire.
That flies in the face of history. In 1945 the US & UK were the only ones with nukes and they had big armies in Europe which could have done the job. They didn't go to war though, did they?
Oerdin, I posted pretty much the same thing to Spiff, this was his response...
"Ths US has a history of not waiting for its foes to attack it. Once the Cold war became really hot (when the containment doctrine meant that you had tens of thousands of soldiers killed), the US could have well started an offensive war against its greatest foe, which you perceived as a menace to yourselves as well as a menace for mankind as a whole."
Long time member @ Apolyton
Civilization player since the dawn of time
That flies in the face of history. In 1945 the US & UK were the only ones with nukes and they had big armies in Europe which could have done the job. They didn't go to war though, did they?
The UK had NO nukes in 1945 and the US had almost none (they used the only two they had against Japan). Production slowly increased from 1946 on. Britain didn't have nukes until 1953, and France not until 1960.
The Soviets did their first A-bomb test in 1949 and had the H-bomb in 1955 (the US got it in 1952).
As you know, successful wars require public support. In any event there was no political possibility in 1945-47 of an attack of any kind on the (former) Soviet ally who had borne the brunt of the war against Hitler. Attempts to stoke up fear of Soviet aggression were in full swing when the Soviets announced their first successful test in 1949, the day before the conference to create NATO.
Their timing was superb. The news of the atomic test apparently hit the conference the same way the news of Napoleon's escape from Elba hit the Congress of Vienna!
Tecumseh's Village, Home of Fine Civilization Scenarios
Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
On the minus side, they will surely eventually end up in the hands of countries much less sane than those who faced off during the Cold War -- at which point, we're seriously fubarred.
I would hardly say Stalin and Khrushchev were models of sanity. They were almost as bad as Kim Jong-Il. It was a good thing we got the nukes first.
"And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man." -- JFK Inaugural, 1961
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is not a vice." -- Barry Goldwater, 1964 GOP Nomination acceptance speech (not George W. Bush 40 years later...)
2004 Presidential Candidate
2008 Presidential Candidate (for what its worth)
Kruschev was not insane. Stalin, however, may very well have been paranoid, and also very likely suffered from bouts of alchohol induced/magnified depression. As in sitting getting drunk and increasing the execution totals by fiat district by district for the NKVD (or whichever initials it had at that point). Not exactly the sanest behavior in anyones book.
The worst form of insubordination is being right - Keith D., marine veteran. A dictator will starve to the last civilian - self-quoted
And on the eigth day, God realized it was Monday, and created caffeine. And behold, it was very good. - self-quoted Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry… I wish it were otherwise.
I think Stalin may well have been paranoid, but his behaviour should be understood mostly in terms of the history and politics of the day, including Bolshevik ideology and the history of the Russian Civil War. It's so easy to just paint complex characters in complex situations as "insane".
Hitler wasn't insane either, at least before the last couple of years. He was a fascist. That explains much more than "insane".
The American media is responsible for repeating claims that the enemies du jour of the US leaders are "insane", or "mad". I think that's where most of it comes from. Of course, it's just the crudest propaganda.
Tecumseh's Village, Home of Fine Civilization Scenarios
Originally posted by techumseh
There is no evidence that either Kruschev or Stalin were insane. You can't understand history in those kind of terms. It just isn't rational.
We can judge them by their actions in the past and deduce how they may have acted if we weren't holding The Bomb over their heads. Stalin killed more of his own people than Hitler. Khruschev threatened to bury us while pounding his shoe on a table (in the UN!). Neither came close to defining "rational".
"And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man." -- JFK Inaugural, 1961
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is not a vice." -- Barry Goldwater, 1964 GOP Nomination acceptance speech (not George W. Bush 40 years later...)
2004 Presidential Candidate
2008 Presidential Candidate (for what its worth)
"And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man." -- JFK Inaugural, 1961
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is not a vice." -- Barry Goldwater, 1964 GOP Nomination acceptance speech (not George W. Bush 40 years later...)
2004 Presidential Candidate
2008 Presidential Candidate (for what its worth)
Evil is not the same as insanity. Stupidity is not the same as madness.
Instead of taking the intellectually lazy path of describing Stalin's purges as "insane", why not ask why he did it? What were his motives, his interests? Were there some real threats to his power or to the Soviet Union? Who gained, and what did they gain?
Or Kruschev. Do you really think the shoe banging proves him insane? Does losing it once make you crazy? Does being a bit of a peasant mean you're nuts? Why DID he bang his shoe?
Tecumseh's Village, Home of Fine Civilization Scenarios
Techumseh, I am not talking just the purges, but the drunken arbitrary behavior of increasing the Terror totals - as in the targets for random executions - late into the night while drinking. That is different than a purge, or even the kind of callously effective "terror" that can be used to control a state. I think one would have to stretch the definition of sane to cover that, and Stalin's other behavior, even in context, strongly supports the label of paranoid.
The worst form of insubordination is being right - Keith D., marine veteran. A dictator will starve to the last civilian - self-quoted
And on the eigth day, God realized it was Monday, and created caffeine. And behold, it was very good. - self-quoted Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry… I wish it were otherwise.
I'm aware of what they believed was their reasons for what they did but being aware of an insane person's motivations doesn't make them any less insane.
"And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man." -- JFK Inaugural, 1961
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is not a vice." -- Barry Goldwater, 1964 GOP Nomination acceptance speech (not George W. Bush 40 years later...)
2004 Presidential Candidate
2008 Presidential Candidate (for what its worth)
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