Batman begins: post your reviews and comments here (no spoilers)

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Sandman
Great film.

There's only one person I'd like to see play the Joker: Jim Carrey. Who cares if he's already done the Riddler?

Ugh.

While the Joker should definitely be crazier than Jack Nicholson's portrayal, I think Carrey would be terrible. He can be really good in dramatic roles, but the second he's cast as something like this, he loses all sense of subtlety or restraint.

[Sandman]

You don't think that Nolan could keep him under control?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I think Carrey would be great for a Joker role. As he showed in "The Truman Show" he can dramedy. He can restrain himself, however, I think in most of his comedy roles the director tells Jim to act as wacky as possibly.

[Nostromo]

Btw, what's the car Bruce Wayne is driving? A lamborghini?

I'm surprised only about 5 polytubbies saw Batman. And you call yourself geeks. What a pathetic display. I'll have your licenses revoked

[Q Classic]

Some notes about the comments here:

1. Comparing the early animated series and the comic book series:
a) Clayface was originally a bit character present for one arc in the 60s, irrc, who was completely uninteresting in the comics; it was only after the animated series's reimagination of Clayface became enormously popular that they added him into the comic book series.
b) Harley Quinn was an invention of the animated series. Once it was realized that she was a fascinating and popular character in her own right, she was added to the comics.

2. On this movie:
a) DC comic book movies have, by and large, not been that great because DC is owned by WB, and they do not often give fans creative control--fan control is precisely why movies like X-Men (1, 2), Spider-man (1, 2), and Hellboy are considered better-made (and good) than ones not done by fans, like Hulk, Catwoman, Daredevil, and Elektra.
b) The trend with DC movies seems to parallel the trend with DC comic books as well. The first few DC movies, about Superman, were very golden- and silver-age portrayals (though, honestly, with Superman, that's really to be expected); the early Batman had the dark look that we associate with modern Batman, but that darkness was also there towards the late silver-age. The later Batman movies, with their campiness and sheer badness mimic the Adam West Batman era, with the comedic arcs in the comics, and now Batman Begins, with its grittiness, large lack of humor outside of a few one-liners, and brutality hearkens very much of the post-Crisis Frank Miller Batman, ie., the (late 80-modern) Batman.
c) Batman has THE BEST Rogue's Gallery of any comic book world (the only other one that comes close, imho, is Spider-Man), which enables fan-creators a lot of freedom in their stories. Even better, I hope they do pick some of the lesser known ones in the future as well--the appearance here of the primary villian¹ was a very nice surprise, even more so his portrayal.
d) This movie really does fit in the grittier, more "realistic" world imagined by Frank Miller, but still maintains the absurdity required of the genre. The Batmobile-as-Tank, for instance, rather than the sleek and graceful Tim Burtonese Batmobile; trying to take down the vigilante as well; a non-enhanced human wearing powerful body armor fighting crime; and yet, pretending that an intrepid muckracking reporter wouldn't be able to find out what Bruce Wayne was really up to.
d) I did like the recurring fear motif, and really does match up with modern comics Batman, who also quite figuratively becomes what he fears most. I didn't feel it was too over-the-top, though it was slightly a bit too obvious.

3. Other, smaller notes:
a) The portrayals of Alfred and Gordon were flat-out fantastic. They sure as hell picked the right actors, though Gordon occasionally reminded me of Lewis Grizzard (appearance only).
b) ²
c) Say what you will about Katie Holmes, but the outfits she wore in the movie were quite flattering to her.
d) It's amazing how much like Chicago Gotham looked. (Yes, I know it was filmed here, doesn't stop me from being happy whenever I recognize a street and what not. Kinda like in Spidey-2, when I recognize the El stops.)

That's it for now.

===

¹

Spoiler:

Ras Al Guhl is fantastic in this film, both with the switcheroo and the whole mysteriousness aspect of his character. I'll admit I was surprised by it, because a) I didn't expect the writers would be so daring, b) I got distracted by the other plot points, and c) I fell victim to the Star Trek II trick, where they "kill" someone, only to show that it wasn't a real death.

²

Spoiler:

Like in Return of the King, it's the common man who saves the day. Much like how Sam rises to the occasion and bears Frodo on his back all the way up the rest of Mount Doom, it's Gordon who saves the day by freeing up most of Batman's burden by being the one to actually stop the train.

[Q Classic]

This one is much darker and grimer. Remember, this is supposed to be a comic book!

I'm going to treat this with a response that outweighs it, but...

1. For one thing, the American Comic Book/Graphic Novel genre is a brutalized art form. Initially, while it flourished in the 20s to the 40s, Wertham's book Seduction of the Innocent nearly destroyed the medium with its charges of homoeroticism (largely true--Superheroes and their wards can often be read that way) and other deviant sexualities (Wonder Woman and her golden lasso doesn't smack of bondage... how?) and violence, among other things.

2. Comic books as an American/English Genre are also very one-sided, at least until the post-80s era; while in the 20s and 30s many also had pulp storylines, about detectives, real crimes, and other prurient interests, towards the 40s and even in the modern age, it's been dominated by superheroes, whether they're anti-heroes, fallen heroes, shiny heroes, or whatever. (Dominated does not mean that was all that was published: Archie and Jughead (one can also easily read homoeroticism into this--it's not just humor in Chasing Amy), for instance, and the Disney comic books, for instance are non-superhero comics published in the era.)

3. Incidentally, the name "comic book" itself is somewhat of a misnomer, since many comic books in general weren't written to be funny, but to be another storytelling medium. Unfortunately, with a name like "comic books", and their close relatives, the moving picture "cartoons", even series with compelling voice acting/writing/storytelling/artwork is treated as kids' material. A shame, since some of these series would have had a wider audience if that near-stigma hadn't been attached. (This is why so many people now refer to them as "graphic novels" and "animated series", though personally I still use terms interchangeably. (Except for Batman: The Animated Series--and that's only because it's part of the title.))

4. Honestly, I think the combined stigma of the term "comic book", the overabundance of superheroes, and the near-total annihialation of the genre by Wertham are some of the biggest reasons why the American comic book/animation genre is still quite limited, especially compared to that of Japan. Because Japan never had to deal with the age issue, nor did it have a McCarthy-esque Wertham attacking the industry, the medium was able to flourish; other genres were able to come into being in the absence of superheroes, though in some aspects a few other genres began to dominate, like magical schoolgirl or big robot. In America, you have only a few strains in Animation--the Disney/Family friendly generally comedic and happy movies and telly shows, and the occasional darker, animated television show based on superheroes. In comic books, you have superheroes, and only in comic book stores do you find published indie titles, like anything written by Andi Watson (Breakfast After Noon, Geisha), David Clowes (Ghost World), or other titles like Jeff Smith's Bone and anthologies of works like Flight. (Webcomics are another area where good indie work can be found, but it's much harder to separate the wheat from chaff. Signal-to-noise ratio in the internet being what it is...)

5. Which brings me, meandering like, to a rebuttal of a facetious and in all likelihood non-serious statement, in that the comic part of the phrase comic book shouldn't be used to define the term; "comic book" itself is somewhat irreducible.

[Nostromo]

I admit, I don't know beans about american comics. I grew up on european comic books. But what do you make of the underground american cartoons? Stuff like Crumb or American Splendor?

[Q Classic]

Honestly, I'd fit those under the rather loosely-defined "indie titles". Technically, Andi Watson isn't American, he's British, but it's often hard to tell who's what for English-language stuff.

I've never read Crumb, but the little I've read of American Splendor I've liked.

Thing is, I didn't really read comic books until late high school and college, and I actually came to them through Manga/Manhwa to TPBs. So I'm still new to it, I suppose, but I've found myself liking the non-traditional superhero stories (Top Ten¹, and Powers², for instance) and the few indie things I've listed.

===
¹ An Alan Moore work, which imagines a city populated entirely by superpeople, and the superpowered police department tasked with bringing justice.

² Bendis and Oeming work which focuses on a former superhero who lost his powers...and becomes a police detective in a city and world filled with heroes.

[Q Classic]

Actually, I'm surprised I didn't mention this earlier--I thought I had, what with my constant references to Frank Miller Batman and mentioning of Crisis on Infinite Earths. But, much like Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns and Batman: Year One rebooted the Batman franchise after Crisis, Batman Begins is like a full reboot of the whole Batman movie franchise.

(Crisis was done as a reboot (as well as a sales gimmick) of the whole DC universe to clean out 50+ years of cruft and eliminate some of the cheesier/campy characters.)

Note that this sort of reboot is completely different than what Marvel is doing with their Ultimates line. DC's reboot flat-out eliminated and destroyed whole continuities, whereas Marvel's Ultimates re-imagines all the major characters in what amounts to a parallel universe completely divorced with the current continuities. Thus, Ultimate X-Men has no connection to all the other X-Men comics; same with Spidey, Daredevil, the Avengers, the Fantastic Four...

If you don't know what the Ultimates line is, the short summary is an updated reimagining of all the characters. For instance, Peter Parker is no longer an adult (as he is in some comic books), but still very much a teenager. Gwen Stacy isn't exactly Peter's one true love anymore, as he's got a little triangle thing going between her and Mary Jane. Or: Colossus, in his original incarnation, grew up with his powers on a Soviet collective farm. In the reimagining, he was forced to work for the Russian mob; Jean Grey sports a much shorter, sportier haircut and the girls are less sixties-girly and more modern.

It's almost as if they took cues from the X-Men and Spider-Man movies and re-did the comic books. In any case, I prefer the Ultimates to the originals, if only because they're working a lot harder on maintaining continuity.

[Boris Godunov]

Saw it Sunday. Very good movie

I don't think I enjoyed it as much as I enjoyed the first Burton Batman movie, but I was 13 when I saw that one, after all. I think this is definitely a better movie in most respects.

My criticisms are the few gaping plot holes and the lackluster action sequences. But the characterization and script were quite good, and the acting was superb. Bale was perfect as Wayne...but oddly uncomfortable as Batman. But that makes total sense, as he [Wayne] is just donning the mantle for the first time. It's natural he wouldn't be totally comfortable yet.

Bale: - Batman's hot? Who knew?
Caine: - elevates anything he does.
Freeman: - I've been disappointed in him too much lately, but he does a nice turn here.
Oldman: - Nice change to play a normal good guy.
Holmes: - Ineffectual character
Neeson: - Always reliable
Murphy: - very creepy and effective, I thought.

It was nice to see folks like Tom Wilkinson and Rutger Hauer in supporting roles.

As for those plot holes:

Spoiler:

If the water supply was just waiting to be vaporized all over the city, wouldn't there already be massive outbreaks of panic all over from people taking hot showers, boiling water, etc.?

And

Spoiler:

Subway trains are electric, and can be shut down from a centralized hub. The second Batman told Gordon the microwave emitter was on the train, Gordon could have radioed to have the mass transit authority shut down that train line. Not as dramatic, no, but certainly much less damaging than taking out an elevated track with missiles.

Oh, and:

Spoiler:

How the hell did Alfred show up in China to meet Wayne with the private jet? Did Wayne just make a call, and Alfred got the jet cleared through Chinese air space no problem? Huh?

[Drake Tungsten]

Spoiler:

When did it ever say that Bruce was in China?

[Boris Godunov]

Spoiler:

The uniforms of the soldiers in the prison camp looked Chinese--plus the helmets had a single star on them, indicating a communist regime of some support. Regardless, it seems really unlikely he'd be able to summon Alfred in a private jet to wherever he was.

[MrFun]

OMFG!!!!


Teh evil China!! Che come and avert further discussion of teh evil China!

[Q Classic]

Drake, Boris: While it was never explicitly stated, the fact that the mooks in the surrounding area spoke that language kinda hints at it, don't you think? Especially since it clashes with the internal language at the house.

It's almost offensive, in the notion that they all look same, but not quite.

[Drake Tungsten]

While it was never explicitly stated, the fact that the mooks in the surrounding area spoke that language kinda hints at it, don't you think? Especially since it clashes with the internal language at the house.

Spoiler:

I had no idea what language anyone was speaking. All I could figure out with my limited knowledge of Asian languages is that Ken Watanabe wasn't speaking Japanese...

During the movie, I tried to figure out the location the prison and training scenes, but there's really no way to determine it. China seems likely, but it could just as easily be Bhutan, Nepal, North Korea, Mongolia or someplace else.

Anyway, I don't see why it would be so hard to fly a private jet into China. China's not a closed country and there's commercial air traffic into and out of its borders constantly. I doubt it would be very difficult for the private jet of an important global industrialist like Bruce Wayne to get permission to enter. It's not like it poses any sort of threat...