Bolivia on the verge of revolution?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Why not ask LotM? I believe he gave a thumbs up because an organization you normally vilify has actually help teach the Bolivian military that it isn't ok to run around shooting anti-government protesters. There is an irony in you vilify the SotA then prassing the results of their work.

yup, Aggie misinterpreted. It was a mix of laughter given the rep of SotA, surprise, wonder IF youd gotten it right, and a thumbs up on the assumption you had gotten it right.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


No one disagrees, why are you harping on this?

cause theres nothing in there about Peru taking any territory from Bolivia?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
There is an irony in you vilify the SotA then prassing the results of their work.

Cuz historically, the results of the SotA has been coup d'etats, murder, torture, etc. Reasonable people are rather disinclined to believe you. If the Bolivian military is keeping its hands off, it's not because of the SotA training, but inspite of it.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
cause theres nothing in there about Peru taking any territory from Bolivia?

Peru and Bolivia were allies in the War of the Pacific. Why would Peru take Bolivian territory in that war?

Anyway, following the link Oerdin provided, I searched around and found two Peru-Bolivian wars in the early 19th Century.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Cuz historically, the results of the SotA has been coup d'etats, murder, torture, etc. Reasonable people are rather disinclined to believe you. If the Bolivian military is keeping its hands off, it's not because of the SotA training, but inspite of it.

historically the results of an ivy league education were a belief in the dominance of white males, a support for capitalism, particularly free market capitalism, and a support for US foreign policy. Oh, and a strong belief in the superiority of Western culture, as expressed in great books.

until it wasnt. Curriculums and their results DO change.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Peru and Bolivia were allies in the War of the Pacific. Why would Peru take Bolivian territory in that war?

Anyway, following the link Oerdin provided, I searched around and found two Peru-Bolivian wars in the early 19th Century.

Which would have been before 1863, and so couldnt account for change from your map to the present boundaries.

[Dinner]

Che, Wiki is good for noncontriversal stuff but for this sort of topic Wiki is a horrible source. You end up getting alot of misinformation from them since any old hack can rewrite wiki.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


yup, Aggie misinterpreted. It was a mix of laughter given the rep of SotA, surprise, wonder IF youd gotten it right, and a thumbs up on the assumption you had gotten it right.

OK. Both of you are being daft then.

Perhaps you should try reality for a change.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Che, Wiki is good for noncontriversal stuff but for this sort of topic Wiki is a horrible source. You end up getting alot of misinformation from them since any old hack can rewrite wiki.

It confirms stuff I'd read two years ago. Lemme go check to see if NACLA has anything on it.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Cuz historically, the results of the SotA has been coup d'etats, murder, torture, etc. Reasonable people are rather disinclined to believe you. If the Bolivian military is keeping its hands off, it's not because of the SotA training, but inspite of it.

Word.

Besides, the US is pro-coup anyway, as has been shown by its policies in Latin America.

You guys are so cool. It's funny to see you being such wonderful apologists for oligarchical regimes.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Cuz historically, the results of the SotA has been coup d'etats, murder, torture, etc. Reasonable people are rather disinclined to believe you. If the Bolivian military is keeping its hands off, it's not because of the SotA training, but inspite of it.

That's just plain false. True, there have been military people from Latin America who went through the 30 or 90 day courses then went back home and still commited crimes but it is hard to blame that on the SotA. Their goals are to teach modern military techniques along with respect for human rights and the proper role of the military in a constitutional democracys (I.E. no coupes, no death squads, do what the elcted officials tell you to do, etc..). Many of the old school Latin American military officialsa weren't going to change their world outlook after just a month long or three month long course so it is fullish to blame the SotA for their actions. After all the SotA did everything it could to prevent them from commiting human rights abuses.

By and large the SotA has done a great job with very limited resources and has helped to stabalize a great many new democracies in Latin America. Of course if someone wants to blame everything under the sun on the SotA then they can but I think even those people realize they aren't being very honest.

[Agathon]

That's just plain false. True, there have been military people from Latin America who went through the 30 or 90 day courses then went back home and still commited crimes but it is hard to blame that on the SotA.

The last 60 years of US policy towards Latin America makes a mockery of your assertion.

This is the same US that praised the army when it tried to remove Chavez, despite the fact that over and over again he has proved to be the democratic choice of Venezuelans. Stop being ridiculous.

[Agathon]

Wasn't it Kennedy who decided that the mission of Latin American militaries was no longer "hemispheric defence" but "internal security"? Wasn't it responsible for "counterinsurgency" training.

In other words, any popular attempt to overthrow the local oligarchies (and only a moron could call them anything else) counts as an insurgency.

Of course the SoTA ran directly counter to actual US policy in the region. Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

[Agathon]

And it's so arrogant to claim that the US is responsible for the Bolivian military's actions in this case.

Get it through your head: the US is not needed for this stuff, and its record shows that its interference has been massively counterproductive.

[Velociryx]

Hey Che...thanks for the response to that question posed earlier. Good post, and some good points.

Here's another one for you.

Given your ideology, and given that it's steeped in Marxist thought, are not the following points true?

* The less-developed a nation is, the less likely a communist revolution is to succeed (on the thinking that, per Marx, only mature capitalist nations with vast infrastructure capable of providing for everyone's wants and needs meets the criterion)

* Capitalism is hugely good at building the aforementioned infrastructure (implication: better than a communist-state-before-it's-ready-for-prime-time....I think this has been demonstrated adequately, historically).

Given the two points above, does it not make more sense, from a purely ideologic point of view, that communists should be among the most rabid supporters OF capitalism? I mean, if for no other reason that the stronger and more vibrant a capitalist economy is, the faster it will reach maturation, which means, the faster it will collapse, which then opens the door for the revolution you're looking for?

Just....exploring the idea....

-=Vel=-