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Nebulous national security concerns, eh?
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Nebulous national security concerns, eh?KH FOR OWNER!
ASHER FOR CEO!!
GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!! -
Yes, because there's a clear connection between intel on the specific planes used for sending suspects to be tortured and a terrorist attack on the scale of 9/11. Not nebulous at all.
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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All part of the same struggle, Ramo. If you were a serious person, you might understand that...KH FOR OWNER!
ASHER FOR CEO!!
GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!Comment
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Torture and usurpation of due process don't have anything to do with any struggle that I believe in. If you valued freedom, you might understand that..."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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What does torturing Iraqis, Afghanistanis, Brits, and Canadians have to do with 9-11?
The cake is NOT a lie. It's so delicious and moist.
The Weighted Companion Cube is cheating on you, that slut.Comment
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Nevermind the fact that the Bush Administration received several key pieces of intel prior to 9-11 indicating that A) several people on Watch Lists were training how to fly planes (but not how to land them *hint, hint*), B) that bin Laden was seeking to mount a massive attack within the United States and soon, and C) the outgoing Clinton Administration (not to mention Bush's own terrorism expert) urged the Bush Administration to take serious the threat of a major terrorist attack.
Oh woe is us, if ONLY the Bush Administration had the actionable intel of the exact flight numbers, exact seat numbers, exact clothing brand, exact breakfast, and exact pocket change the *cough* Saudis *cough* were each carrying. ONLY THEN could the attacks have been stopped.
The cake is NOT a lie. It's so delicious and moist.
The Weighted Companion Cube is cheating on you, that slut.Comment
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Originally posted by DRoseDARs
What does torturing Iraqis, Afghanistanis, Brits, and Canadians have to do with 9-11?
Simple- the attack on the World Trade Centre makes it okay to disregard centuries international law, legal rights and due process at home and international treaty obligations.
There's a war on, didn't you know ?
Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.
...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915Comment
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I apologize, my comment was ill-considered, I realize you are not trying to ignore the affair.Originally posted by DanS
I'm disappointed in you, mindseye. I expected a response a little more thoughtful from you.
However, I really do feel we, as a nation, need to face this dead-on, no matter how uncomfortable or offensive viewing those photos may be. Our country has resorted to systematic prisoner abuse and torture. This was not some isolated misdeed. This is very serious stuff that strikes at the core of who we are and what we think we stand for.
What's the difference between the US shuttling around prisoners to avoid international Red Cross inspectors, and the Chinese shuttling around SARS patients to avoid WHO inspectors?
The difference is that the US has stooped far lower.
All of us - those who supported the war and those who didn't - had better take a long sober look into our national mirror and figure out how the f*ck we reached this shameful nadir.
The rug has been yanked out from underneath whatever remaining ability we still had to inspire freedom and promote our finest ideals abroad. Now how can we talk about "human rights" with a straight face? That's a loss to us -- and the world.
I'm afraid that the road to regaining our international credibility is going to be a long one, but the necessary first steps are confronting this horror in a very public way, to insure it's not minimized, to insure it doesn't happen again.
Personally, I think that's going to require regime change in America. The current leadership's track record of accepting responsibility is pretty abysmal. In Bush's White House, the buck stops anywhere but "here".
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I personally think pics couldn't really hurt the American opinion. The Americans seem to be very tolerant of war because they seem unaware of the fricking horror it is (don't get me wrong: "war is hell" is something I often hear, but it sounds very abstract).
If the Yanks had the horrors of war shoved down their throats, maybe they'd be less prone of doing it."I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- DisComment
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It seems to come down to how systematic you believe the abuse to be, mindseye. If you believe the abuse was largely systematic, then you look at the administration as the culprit.
Unfortunately, I think politics comes into this a lot. It is convenient for you to think that the administration is the root of the problem as it is convenient for me to think that the abuse was not largely systematic and therefore the administration is not largely at fault. For you, showing the pictures publicly is the way to correct the problem, since it resides at the political level. For me, showing the pictures publicly doesn't correct the problem, since it seems to reside at the level of military discipline (no matter how high that goes, such as generals, etc.) -- a part of the military wasn't following and probably didn't even know the precise policies that were promulgated by the administration. Showing the pictures would only be useful if the bad apples aren't being punished and removed from positions where they can do harm.
The thing that gives me pause with this whole thing is the administration's memo about the WoT prisoners that uncomforably skated the edge of legality. For me, this goes directly toward how systematic the abuse was. But it was retracted after something like 2 months and really didn't appear to make it into the field in any event. Further, it wasn't retracted because of public outcry, but rather because the administration saw that it skated too close to the edge of legality.
There are other issues at play here, and I don't want to make it sound like I'm dismissing them here by omission. But this is a good start.Last edited by DanS; June 5, 2005, 14:51.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Originally posted by mindseye
I apologize, my comment was ill-considered, I realize you are not trying to ignore the affair.
However, I really do feel we, as a nation, need to face this dead-on, no matter how uncomfortable or offensive viewing those photos may be. Our country has resorted to systematic prisoner abuse and torture. This was not some isolated misdeed. This is very serious stuff that strikes at the core of who we are and what we think we stand for.
What's the difference between the US shuttling around prisoners to avoid international Red Cross inspectors, and the Chinese shuttling around SARS patients to avoid WHO inspectors?
The difference is that the US has stooped far lower.
All of us - those who supported the war and those who didn't - had better take a long sober look into our national mirror and figure out how the f*ck we reached this shameful nadir.
The rug has been yanked out from underneath whatever remaining ability we still had to inspire freedom and promote our finest ideals abroad. Now how can we talk about "human rights" with a straight face? That's a loss to us -- and the world.
I'm afraid that the road to regaining our international credibility is going to be a long one, but the necessary first steps are confronting this horror in a very public way, to insure it's not minimized, to insure it doesn't happen again.
Personally, I think that's going to require regime change in America. The current leadership's track record of accepting responsibility is pretty abysmal. In Bush's White House, the buck stops anywhere but "here".
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham LincolnComment
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It seems that pics actually can make a difference :
Apologies to posters here that have visited this thread
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Steven WeinbergComment
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Ohhhhhhhhhh
Good point.
We should ask DanS, should the public also be able to see that video?We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham LincolnComment
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we need more photos of pretty girls in uniformAny views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer. Tis the rising of the moon..
Look, I just don't anymore, okay?Comment
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Pictures of only consensual sex, please!I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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