Affordable Family Formation

[DanS]

Earth to GePap. NYC is not a typical US city for a large number of reasons. Get out and see the real US for a change.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DanS
Earth to GePap. NYC is not a typical US city for a large number of reasons. Get out and see the real US for a change.

Correct, NYC is THE MOST URBAN of US cities. Are you saying that somehow NYC is more kid friendly than say Kansas City? Or Denver? Or Miami?

And I can tell you that housing costs in NYC are second only to those you find in San Fran.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by DanS


To be fair, I don't know as Europeans really have as much of a chance to move outside the city. Land is expensive there and the cities aren't built to move people in and out of the city as much for work. So we would have to reduce the appeal of the suburbs and rural areas in the US as well as make US cities liveable for families.

As for your friends, I think I live in what is becoming a liveable part of the city. However, I know for a fact that it's not built to be liveable for families and I see remarkably few children about. It's built for DINKs and singles. If it were built for families, then it would become a lot more boring immediately.

I think it depends on what it means for a city to be more liveable "for families." Good public schools are the obvious place to start, followed by safe streets (though, in fact, the rash of recent child abductions has been more suburban and exurban than urban...). But these things don't make a place less interesting. If anything, middle class kids raised in cities have always struck me as far more interesting that middle class kids raised in suburbia -- far more sophisticated and worldly, and no more decadent than the average suburban kid living in Teenage Wasteland.

[DanS]

NYC is more kid friendly than say Kansas City? Or Denver? Or Miami?

NYC doesn't have suburbs that are cheap to live in and which provide competition to the city, for one. Very few other cities in the US are like this.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DanS


NYC doesn't have suburbs that are cheap to live in and which provide competition to the city, for one. Very few other cities in the US are like this.

BUt NYC has suburbs that are CHEAPER by far than NYC (the difference between a two bedroom apartment in a building and a three bedroom home with a yard), and also unlike many cities a rail network extends into three states, many dozens of miles way.

Heck, you are closer to NYC in its suburbs than in most American cities.

I mean, for God's sake, we invented the very concept of the suburb.

[DanS]

I think it depends on what it means for a city to be more liveable "for families." Good public schools are the obvious place to start, followed by safe streets (though, in fact, the rash of recent child abductions has been more suburban and exurban than urban...). But these things don't make a place less interesting. If anything, middle class kids raised in cities have always struck me as far more interesting that middle class kids raised in suburbia -- far more sophisticated and worldly, and no more decadent than the average suburban kid living in Teenage Wasteland.

I'm thinking of practical stuff. As I was in a suburban supermarket the other day changing coins into cash (such an exotic thing is unavailable in the city), it occured to me that a suburb is built to make things easy for mom. The Walmart is a godsend for her, since it's one big box and products are cheap. That's also what makes things soulless in the suburbs, of course. The scale is for cars, not pedestrians.

[DanS]

BUt NYC has suburbs that are CHEAPER by far than NYC (the difference between a two bedroom apartment in a building and a three bedroom home with a yard), and also unlike many cities a rail network extends into three states, many dozens of miles way.

Heck, you are closer to NYC in its suburbs than in most American cities.

I mean, for God's sake, we invented the very concept of the suburb.

I imagine it's becoming increasingly difficult to get that 3 bedroom house with a yard. It's becoming unobtainable. That's my point.

The topology of Washington's public transportation is no less wide. But Washington is a typical American city. The city itself is a wasteland for families. The suburbs have room to grow and are growing quickly. Of course, this growth can't last forever, but it can last for an awful long time.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DanS


I imagine it's becoming increasingly difficult to get that 3 bedroom house with a yard. It's becoming unobtainable. That's my point.

And yet, a ticket on a plane to Florida, or Texas, or Colorado is well within the grasp of anyone capable of living in NYC. That is my point- if it were such a terrible place to raise children, then people would go out there to the places a house with a yard is attainable. Heck, colonies of ex-New Yorkers abound in the sunbelt.

I mean, what really is the difference between NYC and San Francisco, with SanFran being the most obvious candidate of the childless City? I mean, Chicago still has more than plenty of families within it as well.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by DanS


I'm thinking of practical stuff. As I was in a suburban supermarket the other day changing coins into cash (such an exotic thing is unavailable in the city), it occured to me that a suburb is built to make things easy for mom. The Walmart is a godsend for her, since it's one big box and products are cheap. That's also what makes things soulless in the suburbs, of course. The scale is for cars, not pedestrians.

But humans adapt to their environments. Of course Walmart is a godsend for Mom, if mom lives in a place where everything is a 20 minute drive from everything else and no one walks anywhere (or even can walk anywhere, thanks to the new trend of building residential areas without sidewalks). Put mom within walking distance of six smaller stores that between them meet her needs without necessitating driving, and maybe what mom "needs" changes.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly

thanks to the new trend of building residential areas without sidewalks

[DanS]

I don't think those six neighborhood stores exist in the US, even in what we could call liveable cities. They certainly don't exist in my neighborhood. It seems to me that Europeans must do without some of the time. Certainly, they will pay more.

Besides, what mom wants to schlepp a dozen bags of groceries from the grocery store every week, even if it is a couple of blocks. Just not convenient.

By the way, that sidewalk trend is an old trend, which seems to be reversing itself nowadays. But those sidewalks are pretty damn useless nonetheless.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DanS
I don't think those six neighborhood stores exist in the US, even in what we could call liveable cities. They certainly don't exist in my neighborhood.

Weird.

I have 4 Neighborhood dry cleaners, one neighborhood bakery, 1 neighborhood rental place/ice cream parlor, 1 Neighborhood butcher/ upscale food market, 1 Neighborhood pharmacy just one block away, 3 Neighborhood Bodegas (small Latin owned groceries). As the radius increases the number of neighborhood groceries increases exponentially.

Neighborhood being defined as small bsuinesses not part of or affiliated with any larger corporate chains.

I did not include the two local supermarkets (part of NY based chains) or restaurants, which are commonly not part of any greater chain.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DanS
Besides, what mom wants to schlepp a dozen bags of groceries from the grocery store every week, even if it is a couple of blocks. Just not convenient.

Most non-American mothers. I cant think of a single Italian mother who would just buy food once in two weeks.

By the way, that sidewalk trend is an old trend, which seems to be reversing itself nowadays. But those sidewalks are pretty damn useless nonetheless.

And Americans get fatter by the day. one wonders why.

[DanS]

All of that exists in my neighborhood too, GePap. But the number of products available is insufficient for supermom. It's just fine for DINKs and singles.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DanS
All of that exists in my neighborhood too, GePap. But the number of products available is insufficient for supermom.

"Supermom"??

What the hell is supermom?

And what products are unavailable? Fine, she can't shop in bulk, but most American families don't consist of 7 kids.