Habermaas speaks about EU constitution.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Pekka
Congrats, you missed everything I said.

Yep, because I think you aren't very clear in your recent posts - they seem more like superficial rants to me. If you want to complain about general evils of the world, well ok, but I'm not sure what we should discuss then.

[Pekka]

I know I go on wide range but I wouldn't blame this one on me totally.

I said none of you addresses the double standard issue.

You asked what I had said then.

I explained the double standard issue..

You go on about 'I don't know, well you and the constitution'.

I say, well I wasn't talking about the constitution but in general.

You say you can't read.

Address the double standard issue I have been talking about a lot, and buy attention span.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Pekka
I know I go on wide range but I wouldn't blame this one on me totally.

I said none of you addresses the double standard issue.

You asked what I had said then.

I explained the double standard issue..

You go on about 'I don't know, well you and the constitution'.

I say, well I wasn't talking about the constitution but in general.

You say you can't read.

Address the double standard issue I have been talking about a lot, and buy attention span.

You explained nothing, all you did was posting big generalities about left an right, and freedom and ....stuff. No offense, but that's just nebulous ranting to me. Don't expect me to discuss something you can't describe concretely.

[Pekka]

You only underline my point and put exclamantion marks on it. You don't even see it yourself.

if you don't bother read other peoples post when you request it yourself, the least you can do is read it through. Other that or you have serious comprehension disability.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Pekka
You only underline my point and put exclamantion marks on it. You don't even see it yourself.

if you don't bother read other peoples post when you request it yourself, the least you can do is read it through. Other that or you have serious comprehension disability.

Yeah, whatever. You pwned me big time here

[Pekka]

It seems so.

[BeBMan]

OMG I'm doomed! Well, enjoy your big victory if it makes you feel better.

[Pekka]

No I don't feel victorious. I feel insulted to be honest. I don't like writing long posts, making up examples etc just to be countered with 'you said nothing'.. I know damn well I said what I feel is a double standard. You won't even address that, because you say 'you said nothing about double standards' basically. You are either too blind to see it when I write it in front of you, or too lazy to actually respond to it, in which case I am insulted, since you requested the double standards. In either way, it's not good.

[BeBMan]

Sorry, but IMO you said a lot, but must of it was rather banal.

There is hypocrisy in left and right POVs - of course there is, they are all humans. But this does not mean much if we talk about a certain topic specifically. It also does not mean that all lefties or righties are alway nothing else than dishonest or hypocritical. And if we're discussing a specific field such generalities aren't useful at all IMO. That's why I asked for concrete things about double standards. All I got were more generalities. If you want to make them, fine, I just don't know what you expect me to say about them.

[Pekka]

A spesific value hogging is not concrete enough for you? Ok then.

And smelling from this reply, this seems to be acceptable too.

Lots of leftie arguments are based on emotion and feelings, rather than facts and data. Righties do it too. The whole concept of what the left is trying to do with the new EU is based on nothing but emotions and feelings, that is the welfare state. You never see any plans and numbers when it comes to you folks. All I see is 'oh you are against this and that I see'. That's hardly constructive. Most of lefties (and righties) have their mind preset.

Because when the EU will be set more together and integrated, there needs to be little more than beliefs. Anyone who supports welfare states with the traditional arguments are believers who have never seen a welfare state or know how it works. All the misconceptions are like warnings going off. And if I bring this up, I'm far right wing nut who hates poor people and likes wars. And that's why ultimately the majority of you can't be ever talked with.

And that's why majority of right wing nuts are not any better in that regard either.

And both of yous live through words and quotes and terminology, not facts, data and statistics, and that's why you both fail and never work together for anything better. That's part of the whore in everyone.

And absolutetly the worst outcome is when one of you get a real good position. Relative state of OK is when you just waste your time knocking each other off, because that's when you are not impleneting the fine ideas read on some philosophy book written by some dude, who made a big impact on you.

I don't take anyones word for anything. Even Hitler wanted the best for his people. I bet Stalin did too. And Mugabe does. When you say 'well it's ok since we want the best for you and everyone else too'. Dont' tell me what's best for me, ok? That's the attitude that is totally not cool. Even more so when you can't show me numbers and say and prove why this is best for me, but rather say those general mumbo jumbos and 'because I say so'. If you can back it up, I will listen.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Pekka
A spesific value hogging is not concrete enough for you? Ok then.

And smelling from this reply, this seems to be acceptable too.

Lots of leftie arguments are based on emotion and feelings, rather than facts and data. Righties do it too. The whole concept of what the left is trying to do with the new EU is based on nothing but emotions and feelings, that is the welfare state. You never see any plans and numbers when it comes to you folks. All I see is 'oh you are against this and that I see'. That's hardly constructive. Most of lefties (and righties) have their mind preset.

Because when the EU will be set more together and integrated, there needs to be little more than beliefs. Anyone who supports welfare states with the traditional arguments are believers who have never seen a welfare state or know how it works. All the misconceptions are like warnings going off. And if I bring this up, I'm far right wing nut who hates poor people and likes wars. And that's why ultimately the majority of you can't be ever talked with.

And that's why majority of right wing nuts are not any better in that regard either.

And both of yous live through words and quotes and terminology, not facts, data and statistics, and that's why you both fail and never work together for anything better. That's part of the whore in everyone.

And absolutetly the worst outcome is when one of you get a real good position. Relative state of OK is when you just waste your time knocking each other off, because that's when you are not impleneting the fine ideas read on some philosophy book written by some dude, who made a big impact on you.

I don't take anyones word for anything. Even Hitler wanted the best for his people. I bet Stalin did too. And Mugabe does. When you say 'well it's ok since we want the best for you and everyone else too'. Dont' tell me what's best for me, ok? That's the attitude that is totally not cool. Even more so when you can't show me numbers and say and prove why this is best for me, but rather say those general mumbo jumbos and 'because I say so'. If you can back it up, I will listen.

Pekka, your entire point in this post about "lefties are such and such, and righties are the same" is nothing more than the same thing which you complain about. It is the classic 'because I say so' argument you criticize on others. It has nothing to do with the "facts, data and statistics" you demand from others. It is how you personally feel about them (which is absolutely ok), but that does not make it a universal truth. Others may have made other experiences.

And as said, sure there's hypocrisy, sure there are what you describe as preset minds. But there are also others, and democracy is exactly there to have a competition of political ideas - so why should it be a prob that there are lefties and righties with certain POVs?

And what numbers do you wish to see? Just look at this discussion - the question of a common foreign policy can never be a question of numbers as such. You can maybe measure the support for it in numbers, and you could even make this the base for the final decision (via public vote on the constitution) about the implementation. But this does not answer the question if it basically would make sense to have such a policy, if it is as such a good idea or not. In other fields you may be right to ask for numbers, but you cannot solve every problem with statistics. Nobody would ask for a statistic to decide if murder should be illegal or not.

[Pekka]

"Pekka, your entire point in this post about "lefties are such and such, and righties are the same" is nothing more than the same thing which you complain about. It is the classic 'because I say so' argument you criticize on others. It has nothing to do with the "facts, data and statistics" you demand from others. It is how you personally feel about them (which is absolutely ok), but that does not make it a universal truth. Others may have made other experiences."

Well ain't it the Sherlock Holmes himself. Did I say double standards on the left?You ask what. I say what. Now you say, well, yeah it happens everyone is a human. What the **** did you expect me to answer? What EU is and the meaning of life? Next time, read your own question so you know what I'm answering to.

What stats and facts and data you want me to bring? I haven't ****ing claimed anything yet. INSTEAD you have claimed all kinds of things (the left), so I'd like to see you ONCE back it up with the data. I HAVEN'T DONE SO because I haven't claimed anything to work. Is this so ****gin difficult to understand?

Universal truth about what?YOu are both full of ****. That's a universal fact. Because you both have double standards. That's why. There's nothing genuine about you or your opponents. It's like looking for the good guy in massacre.

" But there are also others, and democracy is exactly there to have a competition of political ideas - so why should it be a prob that there are lefties and righties with certain POVs?"

I explained this already. But since you didn't get it the first and the second time, maybe third time is the charm. I said, in freedom we can all play in the same map. But when any side starts to restrict other sides, and everyone as a whole, taking freedoms away, because they feel it's good for everyone because the goal justifies the means, then it's pure crap. You can play along as you like, but don't start telling me what's best for me. OR at least please tell the facts and data, not terminology and ideals. Those are not real life. Data is what reflects the real world, and that's what effects me. SO next time when you think something that would be for my benefit, please, by all means, present the facts. I DON'T HAVE TO GIVE YOU DATA or statistics, because I haven't presented anything, and I don't try to implement anything to the rest of you. Is this so ****ing hard to understand; i mean really? You countered with this to me. What plans have I told you how things should work for everyone? OH that's right, I didn't.

"the question of a common foreign policy can never be a question of numbers as such."

That's right, if we talk about common foreign policy, there's no numbers, but there still can be data. Of course, foreign policy might be such abstract thing for lefties, that they feel it's just a matter of 'I feel this is the right thing, so let's do this'. After all, you are the European Identity, and the rest of us should go to Alabama.

" In other fields you may be right to ask for numbers, but you cannot solve every problem with statistics. Nobody would ask for a statistic to decide if murder should be illegal or not."

Oh jesus dear lord... I thought it was pretty obvious I was talking about economical issues, and would like to hear the leftist idea how the hell they expect welfare state to work in this future federation?

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Pekka
What stats and facts and data you want me to bring? I haven't ****ing claimed anything yet. INSTEAD you have claimed all kinds of things (the left), so I'd like to see you ONCE back it up with the data. I HAVEN'T DONE SO because I haven't claimed anything to work. Is this so ****gin difficult to understand?

Universal truth about what?YOu are both full of ****. That's a universal fact. Because you both have double standards. That's why. There's nothing genuine about you or your opponents. It's like looking for the good guy in massacre.

Now you're being just stupid. You claim all the time you know how lefties and righties are all hypocrites without backing it up....you do nothing more than accusing them, because you don't share certain views. That is pure hypocrisy. You are not a single bit better. So I take it that you want to go on and on with your own special brand of hypocrisy you demonstrated in your last post while still complaining about others? Fine, it is somehow amusing....

[Pekka]

"Now you're being just stupid. You claim all the time you know how lefties and righties are all hypocrites without backing it up"

Are you denying the world around you? Do you intend to say, that no, right wingers don't hog the patriotism thing??? Unbelievable!!

".you do nothing more than accusing them, because you don't share certain views."

No, this is what I accuse of you.

"That is pure hypocrisy."

No, I was pointing out your hypocricy.

I pointed out that BOTH sides claim values and hog them as their own.

I haven't claimed any ****ing values here.
What's the hypocricy of pointing this out?

You follow the logic of 'You are racist because you pointed otu someone is racist!111'

What do you mean back it up? Do you deny this? OMG.... you braniacs have reached a totally new level of retardness!

Here's to you 'my **** won't stink' prize 2005!!!!

I haven't claimed anything of my own, idiot, read my posts, I pointed out the hypocricy on both sides.

[Pekka]

wait I can answer for you already, so you don't have to type, I know how you answer this:

You are hypocrite. You can't point out hypocricy without being one yourself. What do you have against us, you just hate, you accuse, you don't back it up. You provide nothing. You didn't say anything.

--

translation:

deny, deny, deny, deny, deny, play stupid/be genuinely ******.