Habermaas speaks about EU constitution.

[BeBMan]

I don't say there is now, but I think there's the need for one, and that's why I'm confident there will be one somehow.

[Kuciwalker]

Liberals

[BeBMan]

Ted Striker

[Pekka]

Why is there a need for one? Would you please start actually backing up what you guys say? Why is there need for one? It's like this constitution thing, with huge LUCK you might be able to squeeze a vote of 50.1% if every euro votes, and then impose it on everyone. I'd imagine such important thing like constitution would require at least 2/3 popularity. Then again, true democracy has never been in the way of leftists, since they never understood the concept of freedom. They'd rather have a welfare nanny state, which says what's best for you. You don't need your choice. We got your back. Right .....

Also, if you would all actually explain me, why you want to turn europe into one big welfare state, and HOW would that exactly work IN REAL WORLD? Please, do so and go into as much detail as you can, relying your arguments on data, statistics and facts. Not because you believe in it.

[Colonâ„¢]

Several observations:

- Very, very few people who comment on the constitution have actually read it, or at most just parts of it, and they just derive their opinion from other people's analyses and comments (who probably haven't read it either)

- People who argue pro or contra the constitution are actually arguing about what they view the EU stands for nowadays, and about what it should stand for, not about the actual constitution. Hence you get a mumble-jumble of contradictory opinions.

- The pro/contra divide crosses the traditional left/right divide.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Colon
Several observations:

- Very, very few people who comment on the constitution have actually read it, or at most just parts of it, and they just derive their opinion from other people's analyses and comments (who probably haven't read it either)

- People who argue pro or contra the constitution are actually arguing about what they view the EU stands for nowadays, and about what it should stand for, not about the actual constitution. Hence you get a mumble-jumble of contradictory opinions.

- The pro/contra divide crosses the traditional left/right divide.

So... you haven't read it either...?

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Pekka
Why is there a need for one?

Already said it. If Europe wants more political weight on the international stage there is no alternative, or do you think Euro natonal states can (alone) compete with the political strength (not to mention other fields) of, say, the US? Of course you can say that you don't want this, or don't care about it - but I'd disagree then.

[Pekka]

of course you can disagree. Unlike Euronites, I don't mind if peopel disagree.

Yeah, but what weight are you throwing around, when there's no common policy? It is desirable, when there is one. Before that, it's not. BEcause it would automatically mean goign against lots of peoples interests, who also pay for the membership like everyone else. You don't want to go with 'the end justifies the means' in these. YES EU will be more powerful once it's more united, but in order it to be united it must be so, not enforced. And certainly NOT when left is claiming this is it. The left and right and everyone in between must come together and figure out the way. So your club house is nothing but a big circle jerk until then that holds no validity.

Let me ask you this also. Since we don't get to vote for our constitution at all (because it would be No), how can you, living in EU, accept this? I know it's the fault of our leftie politicians who do not believe in voting to begin with, but how can you accept this happening in your region? Why won't you start pressuring our government for it? DO you feel it's ok when the constitution is installed, that there are big regions where people didn't even get to vote? Do you believe it makes the constitution valid at all to begin with? It doesn't make it valid. It'll make it's value less than it should be. You might ask why we don't fight for it, I don't know I am, I have e-mailed few politicians about it. Guess how many answers I have recieved? 0.

SO LET'S NOT GO before our heads but solve some more basic problems first. You don't release a violent criminal and claim he is now cured without actually curing it first.

[BeBMan]

I hope I don't misunderstand you - I don't know how the prob is seen in Finland.

Yep, I think the people should have their say about something like the EU con. OTOH even the governments of those countries which don't have a referendum have usually the legitimacy to decide about the con, because they were voted in by their people - that is representative democracy. You elect some guys for decision making. If you don't like their ideas, fine, then elect other guys. And usually you can know the political views of those guys before the elections (includings POVs regarding EU stuff). If a country has no elements of direct participation (like a referendum) you can't IMO complain about the Eu or the pro-Eu guys - it is the problem of the political system of that particular country.

[Pekka]

So what you are saying is you don't basically give a **** if there are large parts of EU that never got to vote for constitution that binds them all?

Hey, if I vote for Joe X to be in the parliament, and Joe X with his another elected friend George Y decides that since they are elected, no one has to vote anymore, since they have 'the mandate' for everything??

I bet most dictators came in power legally. I bet some of the peace treaties were legal too, even if they held a gun in the head of the other one. What you missed is, that even thought it wouldn't be directly ILLEGAL, it just makes the constitution altogether .. less valid.

[DanS]

Originally posted by paiktis22
So... you haven't read it either...?

Who has read the bloated mess in its entirety?

[Pekka]

"Maybe the lefties should come up with the foreign policy, claim it's based on the European Identity, thus everyone who says 'wait a minute this is not what I think fo the situation, this is what the left thinks of teh situation' is somehow wrong and in the minority and clearly not traditional European. "

I'd like to bring this up again. No one has answered why this is not a double standard, since the claim is made for the US conservatives who have the flag issue where they make it seem like fi you're not one of us, you are not a patriot.

Would you please make some kind of answer to this or do you just wish that everyone forgets this by not answering it?

Also when you call BS on conservative claim that they own values like family etc, I'd like to hear why you think you own rights to other values? I thought we all agreed no one owes any values.

I'd like to ask if you realize you're doing the very same thing you cry and ***** about others doing? Or are you just so blind you don't see it anymore?

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by BeBro
Ted Striker

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Pekka
So what you are saying is you don't basically give a **** if there are large parts of EU that never got to vote for constitution that binds them all?

What do you suggest how I should think about it? If you don't have a referendum in Finland about it - why is that my problem? Change your national system then. It has nothing to do with me or with Europe.

When your goverment decides something on the national level do you always say "Oh no! I cannot participate! It is enforced on me! It is not democratic!"? That's the same mechanism. Why do you let your government make any decisions at all? Why even have a government?

[Pekka]

"When your goverment decides something on the national level do you always say "Oh no! I cannot participate! It is enforced on me! It is not democratic!"? That's the same mechanism. Why do you let your government make any decisions at all? Why even have a government?"

Like I said, we are talking about the CONSTITUTION. Maybe I thought you actually thought it was more than a piece of paper. Clearly it doesn't matter to you to begin with so I understand your reaction. I thought this was more important to you.

So basically you do say you don't give a ****.