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  • Damn those activist judges!

    How does this not violate the 1st Ammendment



    Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs
    Father appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing son to Wicca.

    By Kevin Corcoran
    kevin.corcoran@indystar.com


    An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge's unusual order that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."

    The parents practice Wicca, a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a balance in nature and reverence for the earth.

    Cale J. Bradford, chief judge of the Marion Superior Court, kept the unusual provision in the couple's divorce decree last year over their fierce objections, court records show. The order does not define a mainstream religion.

    Bradford refused to remove the provision after the 9-year-old boy's outraged parents, Thomas E. Jones Jr. and his ex-wife, Tammie U. Bristol, protested last fall.

    Through a court spokeswoman, Bradford said Wednesday he could not discuss the pending legal dispute.

    The parents' Wiccan beliefs came to Bradford's attention in a confidential report prepared by the Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau, which provides recommendations to the court on child custody and visitation rights. Jones' son attends a local Catholic school.

    "There is a discrepancy between Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones' lifestyle and the belief system adhered to by the parochial school. . . . Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones display little insight into the confusion these divergent belief systems will have upon (the boy) as he ages," the bureau said in its report.

    But Jones, 37, Indianapolis, disputes the bureau's findings, saying he attended Bishop Chatard High School in Indianapolis as a non-Christian.

    Jones has brought the case before the Indiana Court of Appeals, with help from the Indiana Civil Liberties Union. They filed their request for the appeals court to strike the one-paragraph clause in January.

    "This was done without either of us requesting it and at the judge's whim," said Jones, who has organized Pagan Pride Day events in Indianapolis. "It is upsetting to our son that he cannot celebrate holidays with us, including Yule, which is winter solstice, and Ostara, which is the spring equinox."

    The ICLU and Jones assert the judge's order tramples on the parents' constitutional right to expose their son to a religion of their choice. Both say the court failed to explain how exposing the boy to Wicca's beliefs and practices would harm him.

    Bristol is not involved in the appeal and could not be reached for comment. She and Jones have joint custody, and the boy lives with the father on the Northside.

    Jones and the ICLU also argue the order is so vague that it could lead to Jones being found in contempt and losing custody of his son.

    "When they read the order to me, I said, 'You've got to be kidding,' " said Alisa G. Cohen, an Indianapolis attorney representing Jones. "Didn't the judge get the memo that it's not up to him what constitutes a valid religion?"

    Some people have preconceived notions about Wicca, which has some rituals involving nudity but mostly would be inoffensive to children, said Philip Goff, director of the Center for the Study of Religion & American Culture at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis.

    "Wiccans use the language of witchcraft, but it has a different meaning to them," Goff said. "Their practices tend to be rather pacifistic. They tend to revolve around the old pagan holidays. There's not really a church of Wicca. Practices vary from region to region."

    Even the U.S. military accommodates Wiccans and educates chaplains about their beliefs, said Lawrence W. Snyder, an associate professor of religious studies at Western Kentucky University.

    "The federal government has given Wiccans protection under the First Amendment," Snyder said. "Unless this judge has some very specific information about activities involving the child that are harmful, the law is not on his side."

    At times, divorcing parents might battle in the courts over the religion of their children. But Kenneth J. Falk, the ICLU's legal director, said he knows of no such order issued before by an Indiana court. He said his research also did not turn up such a case nationally.

    "Religion comes up most frequently when there are disputes between the parents. There are lots of cases where a mom and dad are of different faiths, and they're having a tug of war over the kids," Falk said. "This is different: Their dispute is with the judge. When the government is attempting to tell people they're not allowed to engage in non-mainstream activities, that raises concerns."

    Indiana law generally allows parents who are awarded physical custody of children to determine their religious training; courts step in only when the children's physical or emotional health would be endangered.

    Getting the judge's religious restriction lifted should be a slam-dunk, said David Orentlicher, an Indiana University law professor and Democratic state representative from Indianapolis.

    "That's blatantly unconstitutional," Orentlicher said. "Obviously, the judge can order them not to expose the child to drugs or other inappropriate conduct, but it sounds like this order was confusing or could be misconstrued."

    The couple married in February 1995, and their divorce was final in February 2004.

    As Wiccans, the boy's parents believe in nature-based deities and engage in worship rituals that include guided meditation that Jones says improved his son's concentration. Wicca "is an understanding that we're all connected, and respecting that," said Jones, who is a computer Web designer.

    Jones said he does not consider himself a witch or practice anything resembling witchcraft.

    During the divorce, he told a court official that Wiccans are not devil worshippers. And he said he does not practice a form of Wicca that involves nudity.

    "I celebrate life as a duality. There's a male and female force to everything," Jones said. "I feel the Earth is a living creature. I don't believe in Satan or any creature of infinite evil."
    Stop Quoting Ben

  • #2
    The divorce decree the judge made prevented them from teaching their children how to practice their religion? This is just outragous. Christians are some seriously ****ed up people.
    Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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    • #3
      Wow.
      (\__/)
      (='.'=)
      (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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      • #4
        It's an occupational hazard with judges. They're charged with solving problems, but they often lose sight of the fact that all governmental officials have limitations.

        I'm sure the judge was acting "in the best interests of the child" as he saw it. Unfortunately, he couldn't see too far due to the fact that his head was shoved up a bodily orifice.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Oerdin
          The divorce decree the judge made prevented them from teaching their children how to practice their religion? This is just outragous. Christians are some seriously ****ed up people.
          It doesn't say anywhere in the article that the judge who made this decision is a Christian. Please take your hate speech somewhere else please...
          KH FOR OWNER!
          ASHER FOR CEO!!
          GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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          • #6
            The judge is Republican...can I complain about that, at least?
            "In the beginning was the Word. Then came the ******* word processor." -Dan Simmons, Hyperion

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            • #7
              For God's sake, would somebody please explain to this judge what common sense is all about?

              Gatekeeper
              "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll die defending your right to say it." — Voltaire

              "Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." — Confucius

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              • #8
                We were taught in KINDERGARTEN that settlers came to America to pursue religious freedom. I mean that is like about a sacred concept as the flag itself.

                The judge's heart is in the right place (if he REALLY is trying to keep the kid from being confused), but it's a poor decision.

                What should we do with kids who have parents from different religions?
                We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

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                • #9
                  Wiccans are stupid. Throw rocks at them.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
                    It doesn't say anywhere in the article that the judge who made this decision is a Christian. Please take your hate speech somewhere else please...
                    Oh please. Are you willfully this ignorant or were you born this way?
                    Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ted Striker
                      We were taught in KINDERGARTEN that settlers came to America to pursue religious freedom. I mean that is like about a sacred concept as the flag itself.

                      Nah, they really came here to impose their version of religion on other people and make them do what they were told.


                      Tolerance wasn't big on the Christian agenda in the 17th Century.


                      Not too big an item in the 21st either, it seems, in the Holy Christian Commonwealth of Bushdonia.


                      Now can anyone find any Quakers to hang on Boston Common, or any Jews to lynch or Catholics to disbar from public office ?
                      Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

                      ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Oerdin
                        Christians are some seriously ****ed up people.
                        Make that "Some Christians..."
                        (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
                        (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
                        (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by molly bloom



                          Nah, they really came here to impose their version of religion on other people and make them do what they were told.


                          Tolerance wasn't big on the Christian agenda in the 17th Century.


                          Not too big an item in the 21st either, it seems, in the Holy Christian Commonwealth of Bushdonia.


                          Now can anyone find any Quakers to hang on Boston Common, or any Jews to lynch or Catholics to disbar from public office ?
                          You are right of course.

                          But that's what we were taught in school.
                          We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

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                          • #14
                            If we were told the truth about our countries histories in school we would be in serious bother
                            Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ted Striker


                              You are right of course.

                              But that's what we were taught in school.

                              And that's how you end up with Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and George Bush Jr, the (Im)Moral Majority and the American Family Association.

                              Catch 'em young, brainwash 'em and see how they end up.
                              Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

                              ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

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