10 most rightist posters on poly

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by Agathon

Therefore as you defined above, yes, apparently if the defintion of liberal that I gave is the accepted one, they wouldn't necessarily always be for change- but that does not discredit the conservative position. For the conservative, what is working, continues to work. He is for gradual change- not radical change.

I don't think you understand my argument. It doesn't depend at all on the meaning of "liberal", it just takes as its start your claim that conservatives wish to preserve tradition.

I've pointed out that if you adopt this as a rule to guide action it is basically the same as adopting a position of voluntary ignorance.

This is a philosophical argument, it doesn't have anything to do with what is in the dictionary or what people do, it is about the concept "conservative" as you defined it, and whether that concept is of any use in guiding political action. I've given reasons why it is useless as a guide to political action – that is the argument.

Okay Agathon. I think I understand you now.
I'll answer this later since I have to head off and do something now, but I think that we can pare down our previous arguments to my response to your statement here and any posts that proceed from that.

Do you think that's an appropriate idea... as we seem to have gotten off topic from the pure philosophical objections?

Or would you still like to discuss the other issues?

[Agathon]

Or would you still like to discuss the other issues?

Not really. If the theory itself is deemed useless, then approaches to the other issues based on it are obviously erroneous.

[Alexander's Horse]

nice to see Darkcloud coming out of retirement

[MrFun]

Originally posted by DarkCloud


Or would you still like to discuss the other issues?

Here on Apolyton every one of us loons have issues.

Can I be next for an appointment?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ned


The problem I have discussing issues with you is that you do not respond to what I say, but to a strawman instead.

I said that Britain was a fault for helping to cause WWII in both the East and the West, cause the the Mid East conflicts that we see today, and touch off wars between Hindu and Muslim in the subcontinent. What Britain did in all these events was to take historical antagonists and place them in conflict by one means or another. In this, Britain lit the fuse. You respond with, well Britain didn't create the bomb, then claim victory in your argument with me.

So, I give up talking to you until you get reasonable.

I'd rather you gave up talking altogether, until at least you remember what you said, or provided evidence to back up your bizarre assertions beyond that provided by:

a) a film you saw about the Japanese invasion of Manchuria

b) some conversations you had with unnamed unquoted 'Indian' friends

c) whatever oracular visions were provided you by late night indigestion.

Here's what you said:

" Britian is deeply involved in creating the causes for war and to actually starting them. Now I am not the only one who has ever said this, as it appears to be a consensus view among all of Britains victims. But, British propaganda is very good, I agree. It almost has most of the world convinced that Britain is the most disinterested, kindly and munificent nation that ever existed.

*Germany vs. Poland, China vs. Japan, Arab vs. Jew in Palestine, Pakistan vs. India. There are more of course. But these stand out. (Nedaverse history)



Here's what an Indian historian has to say about Muslim-v-Hindu conflict during Partition in India:

" Did those who sponsored the massacre of hundreds of thousands of men, women and children (estimates have been given which vary from 200 000 to 500 000) ever lose any sleep ? There is no evidence, either from India or Pakistan, that they did.

But then who wants to remember the truth about oneself ?


It is so much easier to place a white man's name at the top of the roll-call of hate, and quietly ignore the brown sub-continental villains who were criminals of a worse kind. "

M. J . Akbar, 'India: The Siege Within'

publ. Penguin Books, 1985


It's a useful book, given that it also details Hindu-Muslim conflicts in India prior to the establishment of the British Raj. But you can just rely on your gut instinct that the British Empire was responsible, eh ?

How about Japan and China's enmity? Let's see what a Japanese aristocrat has to say:

" If new warships are considered necessary we must, at any cost, build them: if the organization of the army is inadequate we must start rectifying it from now; if need be, our entire military systemn must be changed...

At present, Japan must keep calm and sit tight, so as to lull suspicions nurtured against her; during this time the foundations of national power must be consolidated; and we must watch and wait for the opportunity in the Orient that will surely come one day. When this day arrives,

JAPAN WILL DECIDE HER OWN FATE .

Baron Hayashi

from: Storry: 'Japan and the Decline of the West in Asia'.


Germany versus Poland ?

Let's see:

" Kovno (present day Kaunas) is a typical Russian town, with low, mean wooden houses... on the further bank of the Niemen there stands the tower of an old German castle of the Teutonic Knights, a symbol of German civilization in the East...

...the population, made up as it is of such a mixtureof races, has never produced a culture of its own, and, left to itself, would succumb to

POLISH DOMINATION ."

Ludendorff, 'My War Memories' publ. London, 1919

What did Herr Hitler have to say in 'Mein Kampf' ?

"We will put an end to the perpetual Germanic march towards the south and west of Europe and turn our eyes towards the land of the East.

...when we speak of new territory in Europe today, we must principally think of Russia and the border states subject to her."

A. Hitler, 'Mein Kampf' p.553

also from 'Mein Kampf':

"To demand that the 1914 frontiers of Germany should be restored is a political absurdity... the confines of the Reich as they existed in 1914 were thoroughly illogical; because they were not really complete in the sense of including
ALL THE MEMBERS OF THE GERMAN NATION...THEY WERE TEMPORARY FRONTIERS. "


In 1891, the Alldeustsche Verband had been formed- its programme was the union of all members of the Germanic 'race' in a Pan-German state.

The core was to be: Greater Germany, incorporating Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Austria-Hungary, Poland, Rumania and Serbia.

Their motto: " Dem Deutschen gehort die Welt."

which I'm sure you can work out means:

"The world belongs to Germans."

Even Bismarck was willing to settle for Kleindeutschland.

[Saras]

"" Kovno (present day Kaunas) is a typical Russian town, with low, mean wooden houses... on the further bank of the Niemen there stands the tower of an old German castle of the Teutonic Knights, a symbol of German civilization in the East...

...the population, made up as it is of such a mixtureof races, has never produced a culture of its own, and, left to itself, would succumb to

POLISH DOMINATION ."

Senile moron. The castle was built by Lithuanians SPECIFICALLY to keep the Teutons out of this side of Nemunas.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Saras

"" Kovno (present day Kaunas) is a typical Russian town, with low, mean wooden houses... on the further bank of the Niemen there stands the tower of an old German castle of the Teutonic Knights, a symbol of German civilization in the East...

...the population, made up as it is of such a mixtureof races, has never produced a culture of its own, and, left to itself, would succumb to

POLISH DOMINATION ."

Senile moron. The castle was built by Lithuanians SPECIFICALLY to keep the Teutons out of this side of Nemunas.

For a moment there I was sure you were referring to Ned.

Yes, but it's interesting isn't it, that Ludendorff should refer to 'the mixture of races' and 'Polish domination' all without British help.

Perhaps Ned will discover information that Ludendorff was a British sleeper, who prosecuted the First World War to wreck Imperial Germany, divide German lands and cause nation states to arise on previously German held territory. In the Nedaverse, anything is possible.

And of course to allow the rise of Hitler.

You can't discount the trickery of Perfidious Albion. After all, Kaiser Wilhelm II's mother was English....

[Saras]

On a slightly related not, in R.Barro's research (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...750512-0944637), being a former Brit colony is a positive dummy variable, explaining superior gdp growth

[chequita guevara]

Does that include Africa?

[Drake Tungsten]

How about Japan and China's enmity? Let's see what a Japanese aristocrat has to say:

" If new warships are considered necessary we must, at any cost, build them: if theorganization of the army is inadequatre we must start rectifying it from now; if need be, our entire military systemn must be changed...

At present, Japan must keep calm and sit tight, so as to lull suspicions nurtured against her; during this time the foundations of national power must be consolidated; and we must watch and wait for the opportunity in the Orient that will surely come one day. When this day arrives,

JAPAN WILL DECIDE HER OWN FATE .

Baron Hayashi

from: Storry: 'Japan and the Decline of the West in Asia'.

Interesting choice of people to quote...

Variously described as a great, brilliant Diplomat and Statesman, an Anglophile

In 1866�thirteen years after Commodore Matthew C. Perry (a member of Holland Lodge No. 8 in New York City) had made his first visit to Japan�Hayashi was among the fourteen youths selected by the Tokugawa Shogunate to study the English language, manners and customs in London. At first the students lived in a lodging house, but Hayashi disliked this arrangement (recalling his experience with the Hepburns) since all of them tended to speak only Japanese except when they were attending the University College School. He petitioned to have the group separated and live with private families which was granted.

In 1871 Hayashi was selected to be an interpreter with the rank of Second Secretary with the Iwakura Mission (considered as "One of the most remarkable journeys in world history") that visited the United States and Europe to study their political systems and material culture.

Significant in Hayashi's career was the signing of the Anglo-Japanese Alliance in 1902 and being elevated to the rank of Viscount. He was also responsible for the expansion and renewal of the Alliance in 1905. When the Japanese Legation in London was raised to Embassy status in 1905, Hayashi became the first Japanese Ambassador to the Court of St. James. He was the recipient of honorary degrees from Oxford and Cambridge, translated several English and European classical works on politics and political economy into Japanese, and wrote "For His People" in English.

http://www2.gol.com/users/lodge1/history-e/papers/johnston01.html

He was also apparently a hell of a Mason...

Not really sure what that quote had to do with enmity between China and Japan, anyway. Given Hayashi's background, the Japanese strategic concerns of the time and the title of the book you obtained the quote from, it seems far more likely he was talking about strengthening the Japanese military so they could stand up to the Western imperialist powers in the Orient.

[Saras]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Does that include Africa?

Surprisingly, yes.

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
nice to see Darkcloud coming out of retirement

Thanks for the welcome back, though, as you can see by the excessive amounts of time it takes for me to prosecute any debate- you can easily see why I don't venture out here as often

any debate I get in here has a way of turning into an epic.

[Kidlicious]

Dark Cloud,

The meaning of words depends on how people use them. No one uses your definition of conservative. Conservatives are the antiliberals, but the liberals don't just want change for the sake of change. Sometimes they want things the way that they are. How can you say that something like welfare reform is reactionary? It's not. It's conservative because everyone says it is but you.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

How about Japan and China's enmity? Let's see what a Japanese aristocrat has to say:

When this day arrives,

JAPAN WILL DECIDE HER OWN FATE .

Baron Hayashi

from: Storry: 'Japan and the Decline of the West in Asia'.

Interesting choice of people to quote...



Not really sure what that quote had to do with enmity between China and Japan, anyway. Given Hayashi's background, the Japanese strategic concerns of the time and the title of the book you obtained the quote from, it seems far more likely he was talking about strengthening the Japanese military so they could stand up to the Western imperialist powers in the Orient.

Oh, perhaps the bit about Japan deciding her own fate, perhaps ?

Ned seems to be under the misapprehension that Japan either had no foreign policy of its own, or its foreign policy was decided for it by the British Empire.

He hasn't provided any evidence for this viewpoint, and none of your marginal interjections have either.

I was aware of the provisions of the Anglo-Japanese Treaty, one of which was:

" Article II

If, by reason of an unprovoked attack or aggressive action, whenever arising, on the part of any other Power or Powers, either Contracting Party should be involved in war in defence of its territorial rights or special interests mentioned in the preamble of this Agreement, the other Contracting Party will at once come to the assistance of its ally, and will conduct war in common, and make peace in mutual agreement with it. "


Two powers, Austria-Hungary and Imperial Germany had declared war on the British Empire; a week before declaring war on Imperial Germany Japan is already preparing for an invasion of the German colonies in China and the siege of Tsingtao.

Japan, honouring the military agreement with Britain, declared war on Germany on 23 August 1914. Two days later Austria-Hungary responds by declaring war on Japan.


The Japanese Foreign Minister:

' Japanese Minister for Foreign Affairs Baron Kato's Explanation of Japan's Decision to go to War with Germany

" Early in August the British Government asked the Imperial Government for assistance under the terms of the Anglo-Japanese Alliance. German men-of-war and armed vessels were prowling around the seas of Eastern Asia, menacing our commerce and that of our ally, while Kiao-Chau was carrying out operations apparently for the purpose of constituting abase for warlike operations in Eastern Asia. Grave anxiety was thus felt for the maintenance of peace in the Far East.

As all are aware, the agreement and alliance between Japan and Great Britain has for its object the consolidation and maintenance of general peace in Eastern Asia and the maintenance of the independence and integrity of China as well as the principle of equal opportunities for commerce and industry for all nations in that country, and the maintenance and defence respectively of territorial rights and special interests of contracting parties in Eastern Asia.

Therefore, inasmuch as we were asked by our ally for assistance at a time when commerce in Eastern Asia, which Japan and Great Britain regard alike as one of their special interests, is subjected to a constant menace, Japan, who regards that alliance as a guiding principle of her foreign policy, could not but comply to the request to do her part. " '

Source Records of the Great War, Vol. III, ed. Charles F. Horne, National Alumni 1923

The German view:

" A disdainful rejection was the answer of Germania and then Meyer-Waldeck drew his sword! "War! War!" was re-echoed in the region of Tsing-tau, "war against a fine pair of brothers! So let it be: we shall fight to the last drop of blood."

And how they did fight! Nothing came of the desire to present the fall of Tsing-tau as a birthday present to the Mikado on October 31st, as the Japanese had planned. There was bitter fighting. The enemy often sustained bloody repulses.

The warships, including the Kaiserin Elizabeth, of the Austro-Hungarian navy, valiantly assisted. The Kaiserin Elizabeth wanted at all events to fight with us, to conquer, or to sink.

But we here at home, we will continually repeat it to our children: Do not forget November 7, 1914: do not forget to pay back those yellow Asiatics, who had learned so much from us, for the great wrong they have done to us, stirred up though they were by the petty English mercenary spirit! "

Rear-Admiral Schlieper, 8th November 1914

Source: Source Records of the Great War, Vol. III, ed. Charles F. Horne, National Alumni

http://www.firstworldwar.com/origins/causes.htm

Answers again your irrelevant point about what Japanese ships were doing in the Mediterranean- they were at war with Austria-Hungary.



In 1835, Annam, Laos, Siam, Burma, Nepal, Korea, the Ryukyu Islands and Sulu and various Mongol, Turkic and Manchurian tribespeoples were all still paying tribute and sending envoys to the Son of Heaven.

Korea, the Ryukyu Islands and Annam and Burma still paid tribute in T'ung-chih's reign.

The initial Japanese demands for reparations over the deaths of the Ryukyuan sailors was answered with:

" We can't be responsible for the actions of savages beyond the pale of civilization."

the Tsungli Yamen.

So: Japan goes to war with China and invades Formosa/Taiwan in 1875. In 1877, the traditional envoy from the Ryuku Islands still tried to pay tribute to the Son of Heaven, but a shamefaced Yamen has to send him home.

In 1879, Japan formally annexes the Ryukyu Islands.

I'm missing the part that the British Empire played in controlling Japan's foreign policy in this quarrel with China over official suzerainty.

Which power was it that decided Japan had the better claim to the Ryukyu Islands, by the way ?

Japan invades Korea, goes to war with China, goes to war with Imperial Russia and somehow the poor benighted Japanese can't think up any of this for themselves, they have to be guided by the wily clever British.

Pull the other one, it has temple bells attached.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten


To say the Japanese joined WWI solely on their own initiative is silly. Yes, they were eager to take the opportunity to expand empire at Germany's expense. Britain was equally eager to have Japan defend its empire, however, and did its best to get Japan involved in the war.

Odd, then that neither Barbara Tuchman nor Paul Kennedy nor A. J. P. Taylor nor John Keegan seem to think so.

Of course you may have information that noted historians of the First World War were not privy to, and documents that have eluded them.

However, so far the evidence I have provided shows that Japan was able to go to war with China in the 1870s and 1890s and Imperial Russia in 1904 all without needing to be instructed to do so by the British.

So a few Japanese ships in WWI provide escort duty in the Pacific, and manage to get to the Mediterranean. Big deal.

I notice it was Australia and New Zealand that managed to capture German colonies in Papua and Western Samoa without Japanese aid. How remiss of them not to rely on that all-important Japanese aid...

What would Wilson say:

" I must not turn away from this great subject without adverting to one particular in the treaty itself, and that is the provision with regard to the transfer of certain German rights in the province of Shantung, China, to Japan. I have frankly said to my Japanese colleagues in the conference, and therefore I can without impropriety say it here, that I was very deeply dissatisfied with that part of the treaty. But, my fellow citizens, Japan agreed at that very time, and as part of the understanding upon which those clauses were put into the treaty, that she would relinquish every item of sovereignty that Germany had enjoyed to China, and that she would retain only what other nations have elsewhere in China, certain economic concessions with regard to the railway and the mines, which she was to operate under a corporation and subject to the laws of China. As I say, I wish she could have done more. "