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**Kuciwalker** · June 1, 2005, 14:36

Technically the novels are canon, IIRC, but they're not canon most would be familiar with. At least they retain a level of consistency above that of the Star Trek TV series, which are considered canon.

**Imran Siddiqui** · June 1, 2005, 15:37

People aren't going to want to go out of their way to see Clone Wars, which explains why Grevious isn't a complete droid

Um... watching RotS shows that Grevious isn't a complete droid. Which droids have functioning lungs and a heart?

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As for Anakin's turn, I thought it was fairly convincing given all the cirumstances. We know that Anakin isn't that fond of the Jedi order. He sees them as perpetraying one injustice after another on them. And then when Windu wants to contravene Jedi code to kill Palpatine, he thinks, hey, Palpy was right. The Jedi are out for their own power.

After he kills the Jedi Master, he knows he can't go back. And the only friend he has left is Palpatine... even if he is a Sith, Anakin is now convinced that the Jedi and Sith are two sides of a the same coin, looking for power by that point.

**Q Classic** · June 1, 2005, 15:47

Um... watching RotS shows that Grevious isn't a complete droid. Which droids have functioning lungs and a heart?

Looked more like just a heart and eyes. In any case, it still doesn't explain why a cyborg coughs. Breathes heavily, deeply, and noisily, sure. But coughing?

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As far as Anakin's turning... I'll just say this: it could have been handled worse. Story-wise, it's not the worst way of doing it, but dialogue and acting wise, from Anakin? That's what killed it for me.

**Nostromo** · June 1, 2005, 16:02

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

As for Anakin's turn, I thought it was fairly convincing given all the cirumstances. We know that Anakin isn't that fond of the Jedi order. He sees them as perpetraying one injustice after another on them. And then when Windu wants to contravene Jedi code to kill Palpatine, he thinks, hey, Palpy was right. The Jedi are out for their own power.

After he kills the Jedi Master, he knows he can't go back. And the only friend he has left is Palpatine... even if he is a Sith, Anakin is now convinced that the Jedi and Sith are two sides of a the same coin, looking for power by that point.

Imran, ever the lawer...

It may explain him siding with Palpatine, but it doesn't explain why he becomes evil. And that's not surprising, since the whole theory behind it (that fear leads to anger and anger to evil) is just plain dumb. Sure, it gives a nice oriental mysticism varnish to the movies, but if you think about it, it doesn't make much sense.

Mind you, it would be silly to ask for profound psychological insights in a movie like Star Wars. I'm just trying to figure out why the conversion of Anakin didn't seem plausible for 95% of the viewers.

**Imran Siddiqui** · June 1, 2005, 16:46

It may explain him siding with Palpatine, but it doesn't explain why he becomes evil.

But you explained it with the next sentance you posted

.

And that's not surprising, since the whole theory behind it (that fear leads to anger and anger to evil) is just plain dumb. Sure, it gives a nice oriental mysticism varnish to the movies, but if you think about it, it doesn't make much sense.

It may be dumb, but that's how the world in Star Wars works. That's the explination to why he becomes evil. Once you step in the Dark Side, you are usually stuck there and it's all downhill.

**vee4473** · June 1, 2005, 19:00

I have to say that it bugs me when a hardcore fan explains a part of the plot by citing various segments from all the books out there and implies that if you would only read the books you would know these things.

I'm not saying anyone here is doing that, but I have seen it on other sites...the star wars site forum is ridiculous...it's like a schoolhouse playground at recess.

Anyway, by doing that, they are admitting that Lucas left huge plot holes in the movies themselves.

You shouldn't have to look up anything in a novel that should be established on screen.

I think the novels should merely be story extensions and forks in the path of the main story.

They shouldn't be the place where somewhat vital on-screen plot lines are explained.

**Imran Siddiqui** · June 1, 2005, 19:08

Well, to be fair, there was a lot of stuff cut out of the movie. Some of the holes may disappear if the uncut version was seen.

I believe the novelization of the movie is based on the uncut version and eliminates some of the unexplained stuff.

**vee4473** · June 1, 2005, 19:12

It would be fantastic is Lucas released an uncut extra long version as the DVD, that includes whatever is in the novels that seems to be so important to exlpaining things.

We shall see...

**vee4473** · June 1, 2005, 19:16

oh, and one other thing...I know this must sound laughable, but if Lucas felt constrained to include everything, I think he maybe should have stuck one more episode in there somewhere to relax the pace a bit...

so that the prequels wouldn't have seemed so forced.

I know trilogy or sextology (?) is nice for a story, and episodes 1, 2 and 3 fits so nice with 4, 5 and 6..

but in the interest of the damn story, I would have forgiven him if he said he needed one more episode to sort things out.

**Geronimo** · June 1, 2005, 20:07

Originally posted by vee4473
oh, and one other thing...I know this must sound laughable, but if Lucas felt constrained to include everything, I think he maybe should have stuck one more episode in there somewhere to relax the pace a bit...

so that the prequels wouldn't have seemed so forced.

I know trilogy or sextology (?) is nice for a story, and episodes 1, 2 and 3 fits so nice with 4, 5 and 6..

but in the interest of the damn story, I would have forgiven him if he said he needed one more episode to sort things out.

He could have basically thrown out tons of ancillary subplot in ep 1 to achieve that same result.

Throw out the pod race, throw out jar jar and the entire gungan species, throw out the entire broken spaceship stranded on tatooine and find some quicker way to introduce anakin perhaps as an older character. Do that and you wouldn't need a 7th episode to relax the pace.

**vee4473** · June 1, 2005, 20:25

I agree with the pod race.

When I saw it for the first time, I could not believe how long it seemed...I looked at my watch.

Not sure why he focused on that so much.

It seemed very antithetical to what Star Wars was about.

But, I guess he felt it necessary to establish Anakin's strong Force connection...

way overblown, almost aimed towards kids.

The more I think about it, the more I think that he was just looking to lure kids with Episode 1. eg. jar jar and his cartoon like language.

He seems to have progressed a bit with episode 3 in terms of abandoning the kids and telling the story of a genocidal murderer, but too little too late.

I have recently been thinking that Star Wars is not a childs story at heart, if you think about it.

The whole story is based on the plot line of one group of people (the Sith) destroying an entire race of other people (Jedi) in order to gain power.

Hardly a childs bedtime story, yet Lucas tried to make it so and that is where he faultered.

Despite the burger king commercials and flashy lights etc...the main core of the story is one of genocide.

**vee4473** · June 1, 2005, 20:26

and I love Star Wars, I am considered a geek at work because of it.

Just my thoughts

**JohnT** · June 1, 2005, 22:44

I agree with the pod race.

When I saw it for the first time, I could not believe how long it seemed...I looked at my watch.

Not sure why he focused on that so much.

It seemed very antithetical to what Star Wars was about.

But, I guess he felt it necessary to establish Anakin's strong Force connection...

way overblown, almost aimed towards kids.

The more I think about it, the more I think that he was just looking to lure kids with Episode 1. eg. jar jar and his cartoon like language.

That was my point earlier, that Lucas wasn't concerned with satisfying the original fans of the series but purposely aiming his movies to a new generation. TPM was aimed at the 8 year-old set, AOTC was aimed at the 11 year-olds, and ROTS was aimed at the 14 year-olds.

**Lonestar** · June 1, 2005, 23:58

Originally posted by Q Cubed
Okay, here's one comment:

All the people explaining away things like the Judicial arm and such... fans, if you will, apologists, if you will...

You saw Judicials right at the start of TPM, they were the Republic Crusier's crew with the uniforms in the cut of the Imperial Navy.

**Q Classic** · June 2, 2005, 14:38

Lonestar, the problem is, I don't recall them being called "Judicials" at all, nor are they ever revisited in the entire trilogy.

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