Define communism for dum 'ol Lancer

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Agathon: because it creates capital?

Ahhh...so then, because you and a relatively few others live with the haunting fear that someone, somewhere might use the power of electricity to kill, rather than to enable the computer that you're using to type and publish the message above to the 'net, the obvious solution is to unbuild the power plants...rip them down and come up with a method of power generation that can only be used for good...is that about right?

Like electricity, capital can be used for good or ill. Generating quantities (even vast quantities) is not a bad thing, and in fact, necessary for modern society to continue to function, and further, while you cannot accurately predict every subtle shift in a beach by looking at a single grain of sand, you can learn quite a lot by focusing on the individual elements that make up that beach. Further still, society is not the borg collective, but a teeming mass of *individuals* and if you want to truly study society, THAT is where the path begins....with the individual.

-=Vel=-

Well, Marx would not agree with you, and he has good reason not to. Capital is the form of property that by definition exploits the working class. What Marxists want to do is produce the same material things but change the rules that govern them.

I don't really care about your adventures in capitalism. I always laugh at small business people moaning about socialism – as if communists cared about their delusions of grandeur. The problems that attend capitalism are caused in the main by large agglomerations of capital in private hands, not by you doing up the odd house here and there.

Interesting that you should focus so much on the desert earned by work. Marx would not have any issue with that.

[Velociryx]

First, thanks to everyone for egging Kid on in my absence....such a bounty of new material!

Mr. Fun: congratulations, Vel -- I think you pwned Kid, kicking him into the next dimension
And Che: That was definately an oops on Kid's part.

Yes...that was one of the finest moments of pwnage I've gotten to partake in, in quite some time....

Kid: Vel has a vested interest in people not owning their own homes. That way he can rent to them. Sure he'll sell the houses when he can make more money doing that. You don't really believe that crap about helping people do you?

Ahhh! Everyone look closely! Here, you get to play witness to the Communist's favorite and most-cherished ability...the psychic ability! You see....I don't like to confess this often, cos it's embarassing, but Kid really DOES know more about what goes on inside my head than I do...it is a gift common to many, if not most folk of Communist leaning....the ability to know the motivations, drives, desires, wants and needs of their fellow man, which is of course, what makes them the perfect caretakers for those lost and wayward souls.

Kid again: I see you've thought about this since the last time we went over it. Now you are breaking your back to help the poor homeless. What a bunch of crap. Keep telling stories Vel. They keep getting better. Honestly, you are affecting some people here. More than I thought you would.

Well...I never said I was breaking my back to help the homeless....those words were spoken by Kidicious, actually. I am a Capitalist. I desire to better myself BY myself. No help from the nanny state, and no help from one of your work camp utopias, thankyouverymuch. I can do quite well on my own. I can also help other people realize their dreams in the process. Sounds win-win, if you ask me, and certainly better than the alternative you proposed (the "slavery-but-not-slavery thing?)

More gems:

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Like electricity, capital can be used for good or ill. Generating quantities (even vast quantities) is not a bad thing, and in fact, necessary for modern society to continue to function


Kid: Actually it is a bad thing. Capital is sucked out of workers pay. That means they can't buy as much. If you use that capital to buy more houses to rent to more people that creates a housing bubble, which actually causes rents to increase so that landlords can try to get a desired return on their investment. Which causes a cycle until the whole thing busts.

It's not necessary. It's not even desirable.

First, actually, you're talking out of your arse again. Capital is not only profit. I work at my job (where I am shamelessly exploited...'member now, that's YOUR definition). And yet, despite the fact that I am paid grossly less than a fair wage by your standards, I am still able to save a significant chunk of money each month. This money is CAPITAL. It didn't come from anybody's pockets, in fact, by your own definition, I could have MORE of it if not for the fact that I'm being so unfairly exploited at work! *sniff, sob*...I....I'm sorry, I just get so choked up about it sometimes....

Second, Workers are not zombies....they earn pay, and they make decisions about how and where they spend pay. If they choose to spend pay by way of borrowing something of mine for a fee, what's it to you? It's a business transaction between me and that person. If they feel that they're getting a good value, why do you care? Keep yer nose out of it....the decision doesn't involve you, and frankly, neither me nor my renters lay awake at night fretting about what Kidicious thinks of our private arrangement, so why are your panties in such a wad over it?

Third, my girl and I are providing a valuable service with our enterprise. That being, we make it our business to buy up properties that no one WANTS (in the housing market these days, if a house stays on the market for a solid YEAR, it's cos nobody wants it), and turn it into something desirable again. These are small homes..."starter homes" if you will....the well established have no interest in them, and the folks who WOULD buy them wouldn't be able to afford to repair them to a comfortably livable condition. This is our target, and in Columbia, at least, we've got a banquet. Little to no competition for these types of homes, and lots to choose from. Earlier in the thread you make mention of the fact that selling the house is a business transaction, and you're quite right. And here's a newsflash for you...people are in business to make money. Not to make you feel good about working for them. Not to make sure you're comfortable at your job, or that you can afford a new Jag....no...they're in business to be PROFITABLE. That's what business IS. That's what business DOES. If you decry it, then you doom your own utopia to one of marginalization and eventual destruction (which, unsurprisingly, is about the same end that befell every other communist experiment to date, so perhaps that's not far off....).

And this is as good a place as any to outline the plan I promised you earlier, so here we go. Feel free to replicate it. I'm not afraid of what little competition you may provide...

1) It all starts with the personal budget, and Christina and I are committed to securing a means of retirement for ourselves, and to making computer games. Our hope is that our adventures here will facilitate both. To that end, and with that goal in mind, we slashed expenses everywhere we possibly could. We never watched much TV, so out went the cable box. Phone got stripped to the bare bones (and our one perk, DSL Extreme... ), "blow money" was minimalized, I stopped smoking (well, I'm down to the last two ciggarettes, and let me tell you, I can REALLY feel the whole scarcity driving up the value of a good now!), and in all, we've managed to create a budget that saves us 36% of our monthly salary. This is our working capital. This is the money we use to buy and improve properties.

2) Finding properties is as easy as falling off a log. Often it amounts to taking evening drives together and looking for houses with horribly maintained lawns. Frequently accompanying that tell tale sign, is the sign posted on the door. From there, it's as simple as jotting down the phone number and making a few calls.

3) People like dealing in cash, so cash is what we offer. We generally get a good price break too, cos we're holding the green, and people usually fight the urge to drool when presented with an easy way to dump a loser property without having to go thru the hassel of getting bank approval and junk. Win-win.

4) Arse-busting work for me, Christina, and (formerly) dad. We assess and repair, work till stupid hours of the night on the weekends, fret over the details such as the style of privacy fence and how it will "fit" with the rest of the house, the kinds of spiffy faucets to install...all sorts of good stuff. WORK. (Compensatable, by the way). Lots and lots of hard WORK. And when we're done, it is a house reborn, and a work of art, to boot!

5) When we're done, we put it up for rent, and generally, cos what we create isn't your run of the mill little homestead, but something that stands out on the street it's on. We're proud of it, and our renters are too. Usually we have to pick and choose between applicants, and that's always a pleasant dilemma (and what you get when you offer superior service).

6) We don't just collect rent checks from our renters...they're friends. We have cookouts. We communicate. Sometimes we hang out. And further, when we find another really good deal, and are suddenly in need of some cash to bring a deal together, we'll sell one of the newly renovated properties, making the first offer to the folks already living in it. So far, we're batting a thousand in that regard (2 for 2).

7) We sell the house for a profit...as well we should. No one paid us a dime for all the money we poured into it, and we want our money back. Plus something for our labor. Plus the (new) value of the house. And that's a fair price. If it wasn't, we'd not get such eager takers.
Conclusion: Capital is the lifeblood of business. Business is the lifeblood of the economy. Therefore, capital cannot be undesireable, unless it is desired to go back to the stone ages.

Yet more from the Kid-Psychic-Friends-Network: I'm not arguing with you there. I'm arguing that Vel isn't doing that. Vel doesn't seem like this type of person. He seems very much to me like a person who wants to get a rich as he can. If you read his posts more I think he would strike you as that type of person too.

You haven't helped anyone. You sold someone a house. They paid at least what it was worth.

Untrue. We have:
1) Taken a property that was formerly undesireable and MADE it desireable
2) We have helped people for whom owning a home was a distant and far-off dream, make it a reality much sooner than they ever imagined.
Those are, I would contend, good things all around.


quote: Originally posted by MrFun It's so disheartening for you, when someone pays for something of value, isn't it? A lot of people call it, "earning what you need and earning what you want."


I don't know where this came from. Of course I believe that people ought to pay for things. That's what communism is all about.

Not the way you've ever described it, but if you'd like to continue deluding yourself, that's fine...it's great fun to read!


quote: Originally posted by MrFun Well since $200 a month is modest compared to renting the cheapest apartment in our area, he won't be getting rich this way.


Well then that's the difference.

Ahhhh...so now the story changes! SOME capital is okay, it's just gross concentrations of it you're against. So do tell...what's the magic cutoff? Where's the line, oh psychic-one?

And finally, Agathon:
Well, Marx would not agree with you, and he has good reason not to.

And for the record, most non-communists recognize that Marx is about a hundred years out of date. His tattered tome is as moth eaten as the religious texts many communists (and lots of others) enjoy poking fun at. Maybe even more.

Capital is the form of property that by definition exploits the working class.

Wrong. Capital, as Marx defined it, is thus...but then, read the comment above regarding Marx.

What Marxists want to do is produce the same material things but change the rules that govern them.

Right...something you yourself have advocated....just as soon as replicators arrive on the market. Good! And until then, we shall carry on as we are!

I don't really care about your adventures in capitalism. I always laugh at small business people moaning about socialism – as if communists cared about their delusions of grandeur. The problems that attend capitalism are caused in the main by large agglomerations of capital in private hands, not by you doing up the odd house here and there.
Of course you don't! Because a) it does not fit into your worldview and therefore MUST be met with suspicion, and b) Marx didn't say it (I swear, you Reds are worse than Rush Limbaugh's DittoHead fans). Actually, the more I think about it...no...I'm betting you DO care, because it stands as proof that capitalism does not always come to the horrible ends you describe. Further, every huge business started out as one of those small variety you like to "laugh at." So yes...I think it matters much indeed, and is very instructive as to your mindset.

Interesting that you should focus so much on the desert earned by work. Marx would not have any issue with that.

I always laugh at folks who think I should be concerned with WHAT Marx would have thought...

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

That was weak.

You actually acused me of claiming to know what is in your head, after endless crap about the character, Kidicious Prime, that you keep going on about.

[Velociryx]

Now THAT's more like a classic kid reply! Hey...I can't help it if you doom yourself with your own words...it's pretty easy when you SAY, for all to see, that you want to FORCE people to work when and where you and the rulers of the revolution dictate (you know..."for the good of society and all....").

And since you made the comparison, go ahead. Quote me. Find examples of me talking about enslaving the masses and bending them to my will. Find me talking about accumulating my vast riches while breaking the backs of those around me.

I'll just wait right here while you dig up this vast trove of evidence, 'k?

-=Vel=-

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Agathon
Well, Marx would not agree with you, and he has good reason not to. Capital is the form of property that by definition exploits the working class.

...

By that logic, we should get rid of capital entirely. Brilliant!

[Velociryx]

Nahhh, we'll just transfer it all to the state...that way, it's state sanctioned exploitation, which can't be bad....

-=Vel=-

[Lawrence of Arabia]

price controls are the worse idea ever. any economist who advocates straight up price controls is an idiot and ignores economic laws.

[Agathon]

And for the record, most non-communists recognize that Marx is about a hundred years out of date. His tattered tome is as moth eaten as the religious texts many communists (and lots of others) enjoy poking fun at. Maybe even more.

And that constitutes an argument how?

Capital is the form of property that by definition exploits the working class.

Wrong. Capital, as Marx defined it, is thus...but then, read the comment above regarding Marx.

This is not an argument. Surely you can do better. If you want to attack Marxism, then attack something close to the actual theory with real arguments, not some straw man.

What Marxists want to do is produce the same material things but change the rules that govern them.

Right...something you yourself have advocated....just as soon as replicators arrive on the market. Good! And until then, we shall carry on as we are!

I've never made such an extreme claim.

Of course you don't! Because a) it does not fit into your worldview and therefore MUST be met with suspicion, and b) Marx didn't say it (I swear, you Reds are worse than Rush Limbaugh's DittoHead fans). Actually, the more I think about it...no...I'm betting you DO care, because it stands as proof that capitalism does not always come to the horrible ends you describe. Further, every huge business started out as one of those small variety you like to "laugh at." So yes...I think it matters much indeed, and is very instructive as to your mindset.

That's amusing. Nice way to avoid the argument.

I always laugh at folks who think I should be concerned with WHAT Marx would have thought..

If you are attacking communism, you might do better than attacking a straw man.

But if that counts as winning an argument to you, then I guess that is your problem.

[Velociryx]

Was all primed up to post a reply, but then I saw that there wasn't anything to reply to.

Ah well, and about par for the course.

So....since there doesn't seem to be anything to comment on, I'll leave a parting thought behind.

Markets exist because WE exist.

You can drive them underground, you can make them illegal, you can sit raptly and devour the words of Marx and swallow his outdated definition of the word "capital" and get yourself all worked up in a lather about it, and the industrialized world will chug merrily along, leaving you, and Marx, and the dream of Communism to the dustbin of history where it belongs.

Dracon II said earlier that during lean times, a man's persistence and hard work are not guarantees of success. I contend that neither are they guarantees during times of plenty, and EVEN IN times of most dire straits, opportunity abounds.

Allow me a moment of placing myself in Kid's work camp utopia, if you will.

I'd surely be placed in a re-education camp, assuming I wasn't euthanized or something, so that I could be taught the glories of all that was to come.

And in order that I'd be a good little lamb, I'm quite certain that I'd receive bi-weekly rations or something.

Probably, in order to make sure everything was nice and equal, I'd get the exact same stuff as everyone else in the camp.

It's likely not too much of a stretch that my bi-weekly care package from the benevolent fathers of the camp would include smokes, because there's something about a good ciggarette to take your mind off your current misery.

In which case, I'd promptly stop smoking, and then something very interesting would happen.

Even there in the prison re-education camp, I'd suddenly find myself flush with capital...and a market would spring up. A small, clandestine market, in which my "currency" would be exchanged for stuff I DID want.

Suddenly, a market is born.

You will go to your grave in a vain attempt to try and defeat that which cannot be defeated, and that makes me sad for you.

Goodnight.

-=Vel=-

[Ell_man]

Kidicious said,

Know one can know when to buy and sell, because they can't predict the future.

Why are there people who are consistently good at buying and selling stocks or trading in commodities markets? It's because they can predict the future to a certain extent. I'm not saying they're some type of vodoo priests with crazy mistical chants. They're highly specialized people who know lots about their field. They won't know exactly will happen and they'll be wrong occasionally, but they wouldn't still be in their job if they weren't better than the average joe at what they did. Otherwise, joe would be taking his job.

Weathermen are wrong a lot of the time, but there must be a reason why they're paid so well and the weather report is always on the news.


Free trade does not work the way you think it does. Forget about it

How does it work then? I can't see your explanation being true to real life. There's significant transaction costs and risks invovled in starting up a business everytime the price hiccups. Long term market prices that an entreprenur belives he can beat and turn a profit on encourage people to enter the market.

[Agathon]

No good Vel. You'll have to do better than that if you want to be taken seriously.

[MrFun]

I can understand why Vel loses patience in spite of his best efforts to conduct civil argument with someone who is not making the same effort in return.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
price controls are the worse idea ever. any economist who advocates straight up price controls is an idiot and ignores economic laws.

That's about as good of an argument as we expect from you.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by MrFun
I can understand why Vel loses patience in spite of his best efforts to conduct civil argument with someone who is not making the same effort in return.

You can't be serious. No one wants to waste their time, because of the way he debates.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ell_man
Kidicious said,

Know one can know when to buy and sell, because they can't predict the future.

Why are there people who are consistently good at buying and selling stocks or trading in commodities markets? It's because they can predict the future to a certain extent. I'm not saying they're some type of vodoo priests with crazy mistical chants. They're highly specialized people who know lots about their field. They won't know exactly will happen and they'll be wrong occasionally, but they wouldn't still be in their job if they weren't better than the average joe at what they did. Otherwise, joe would be taking his job.

Weathermen are wrong a lot of the time, but there must be a reason why they're paid so well and the weather report is always on the news.

There's just as many people who aren't good at it or unlucky. You can't have winners without losers.

Free trade does not work the way you think it does. Forget about it

How does it work then? I can't see your explanation being true to real life. There's significant transaction costs and risks invovled in starting up a business everytime the price hiccups. Long term market prices that an entreprenur belives he can beat and turn a profit on encourage people to enter the market.

That's right, there are risks to entering a marker, but that doesn't make the price more stable. It just makes longer cycles. Take grapes. It takes three years to make a field produce grapes. You would think that that would make prices stable, but no, grapes prices are depressed right now. Eventually some farmers will stop producing grapes and the price will go back up, and the cycle will continue.